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Author | Topic: Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
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It say that the oldest will be found in the lowest layers and that single celled organisms will appear first, followed by multi-cellular marine invertebrates, followed by fish, followed by amphibians, followed by reptiles, and then birds and mammals. Let's tie this bow up completely. When you say, "oldest", and use other relative timings like "appear first", we mean to use time as reflected not subjectively, but using any and all of the scientific means for establishing dates. Now those times and dates may be disputed based on one or more creationist arguments, but that does not make the objective dates or the observations illusions. If, in fact, the dates are wrong, the correlations with fossils and the observed order still require an explanation of how the dates can be wrong but the correlations are still present. Creationists cannot do that. In fact, the most plausible explanation is that the dates are not wrong. Viewed in that way, anyone can see that Faith's denials are beside the point. Unfortunately, we don't have "scientific creationists" that visit this place anymore. We just have Faith. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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A while back you were telling us of your prowess in critical thinking. Your methodology - such that it is - is the exact opposite of objective analysis. You ignore facts that contradict you and invent facts that you prefer. You don't read source material or study the subject matter in any depth and you don't understand the things you pontificate on. What else did you expect? Blood from a turnip? More than a decade worth of debates about geology, biology, and a host of non-Creationist topics, with 99 percent of her participation in those debates reading much as her posts do here. Faith is the least introspective Christian I have ever encountered. (Read about Peter or Paul if you want examples of what kind of self examination Christians should be doing). In this thread, not only does Faith reject science out of hand, Faith also runs a big yellow bus back and forth over the bodies of fellow Creationists who have looked at the evidence over the past two hundred years up until now, and who have made attempts to explain that evidence as being consistent with the Bible. Essentially nobody on earth is right about this stuff except Faith, if you let her tell the tale.
Faith writes: Conventional Old Earth Geology is false, ridiculously false, why would I want to learn it beyond its usefulness to YEC? Because this a debate site and such arguments are the subject matter of this thread? Because this particular thread is in the science forums and not the theological discussion forums? Because ignorance is not bliss? Because it is uncomfortable to continually demonstrate yourself as the hind end of every discussion? I've noticed that non-Creationist don't take the position that Creation Science is not worth expending effort. At least the ones participating here do take time out to explore what Creationists think about astronomy, biology, paleontology, and geology. Many of them probably know more about what Creationist say on those subject than they know about real geology. That is because knowing the arguments and evidence from the other side is the minimum necessary for meaningful discussion. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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This exchange in the conversation between you and Faith grabbed my attention:
Faith writes: I believe the geological column is a clear entity that is found around the world and not at the bottom of the sea, ever. Percy writes: The geological column is conceptual and not a "clear entity". The concept applies to all the world, both land and sea. What I quoted above is something that folks have made dozens of posts trying to explain to Faith, only to have her stick to her belief. Faith's position is, of course, ridiculous on its face. The geological column is a construct of scientists, and as such is whatever scientists say that it is. It is literally impossible for them to be wrong about what the geological column is. Now, one might question whether the geological column represents anything real on earth. That would be a challenge and possibly worthy of entertaining a debate on. But the position that scientists are wrong about their own idealizations is an absolute simply asinine stance. Yet I can find posts going back years with Faith insisting on this stupidity. I don't know who was the first person to use the phrase, "you've become a caricature of yourself" at EvC, but that certainly fits here. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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The Geological Column is represented in many actual geographical areas representing actual rock formations representing the Geological Timescale in that area What that means, dumb ass, is that "The Geological Column" actually is reflected in the real world. Consider this, when you say that "The Geological Column" is not under the oceans, what could that possibly mean in view of your definition? Seriously, this is why I no longer get into arguments with you. The entire premise of your arguments is hogwash. And with that, I will leave the polite arguing to dwise and the rest of the folks here. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Have you forgotten the hole we dug in the yard of your asylum? Remember how just a few inches down, the grass and trees and plants and dead bugs had turned into material that no longer looked like what it used to be? You are giving the impression that you think that the next distinguishable layer will appear on top of this area overnight, with every hummock and blade of grass preserved. A fine attempt at reason. Please take better care of your pearls. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Magma mostly. Though it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. "Given your claims that there is no "geological column" under the ocean, I'd suggest that the question of what is under there is highly relevant. And, wow, what a hilarious answer you gave ... Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Don't misuse the ordinary term "believe" coyote. It isn't defined by religious belief and it certainly isn't a synonym for "wrong" as you like to use it. Since you introduced the term into the discussion, you get to explain how it is used when you say it. You don't get to tell other folks which meaning of believe to use when they use the term. And it is fair to distinguish what folks do regarding accepting scientific evidence as factual and the type of belief you have that what is under the ocean is mainly magma or your belief that there was a world wide flood about 4500 years ago. For some of your beliefs, there is no factual underpinning. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Right. But again, interpretting the words of others differently than intend is dishonest. We all know that words and phrases have more than one meaning.
You would, of course like to pretend that we are all equally as stupid and evidence free as you show yourself to be. But such is not the case. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Oh get off it NN. Coyote was misusing the term "belief." No, he did not misuse the term. It is perfectly legitimate to discuss both my belief that a total solar eclipse last August was visible in Newberry, South Carolina, and your belief that there is mostly magma under the ocean. Such a discussion won't evaluate the patterns of thinking involved in those two statements of belief as being remotely similar, despite your inane contrary statements. It is in that light that I point out that your statement of belief, as expressed in response to Coyote is just more of your denial about evidence. When you say, for example, that the fossil evidence supports the Flood, it is only because you accept superficial portions of the evidence (Well, the Flood killed lots of animals, and there are lot of fossils) while ignoring the details and calling the illusion. In fact, there is zero physical evidence of the Flood. When I say that, I mean that there is no evidence which is consistent with the Flood and at the same time rebuts alternatives including the scientific conclusions on the subject. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
As for the rest I've given the evidence and am not going to repeat it because you didn't get it then and won't get it now either. You don't have to repeat it. Just point to it. Tell us which posts contain that evidence. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I wasn't insincere, I really wanted to see some calculations I could follow. Maybe there aren't any. You may have to meet him halfway. No matter what number he provides, and no matter the order of magnitude of Joules, calories, electron volts, etc., ultimately you have to make some sense out of them which will require some attempt to grasp scientific concepts. If you are not going to do that, because of either lack of ability, or lack of interest, don't ask people to waste their time. The fact that you don't understand something does not make it wrong.
See if you can find anything, some homely analogy perhaps, like my ten thousand gallon pot over a candle. That would be stupid. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Wrong. It is entirely possible that you are incapable of grasping the science. And of course, they should still bring it up regardless of your lack. Otherwise, we end up with the idea that the most ignorant folks win every time.
But of course we can just drop the subject. How convenient would that be? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I realize I have the advantage of being outside the charmed circle of what you all like to call Science, so I can see stuff you can't see, but I would think that by now it would at least be a little bit familiar. This is an old Buzsaw tactic. Claiming that your own ignorance protects you from being deceived by Science. It is no more charming a ploy when you use it. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I'm calling you on your dismissal of my argument about the two different trilobites. That argument is nothing less than brilliant and I refuse to accept your dismissal. I argued it from the point of view of the basic genetics of the creature. Where did you mention the genetics? Nobody else would have done that based on the fact that they don't have that information. Is that really what you call brilliant? What you actually did in your discussion was dismiss the pictures that were presented so that you could talk about a picture of some other samples. We can all see the features that were not present in your offering, but were present in the ones Percy offered.
There is a great variety of trilobites for sure, but as you look through the images available on the web you should notice that they are all the same creature with different features either emphasized or deemphasized, but they all have the very same features. Nope. What we can see here is you glossing over the differences. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I'm saying that since I'm not committed to your paradigm I am able to see things you can't, and I believe that. In fact, that is exactly the same thing as what I said you do. You don't even know what a joule is, or what it means, or have the least idea how such numbers constitute evidence. That ignorance allows you to spout BS without feeling stupid. What you call brilliance is what objective people would call ignorance. And you bask in it constantly. Here is another example of what I am talking about:
Dr. Jones writes: And you don't get to declare them wrong just because you don't understand it.
Faith writes: Sure I do. Bask, baby, bask. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box by adding second closing "[/qs]". Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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