Christianity and the End Times

Concerning Matthew 24:

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That would be a very odd reading even if Matthew 24 didn’t make it clear that the Second Coming was meant.

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I am not sure I get your point.One part of the chapter's leading question concerns the parousia or (presence) of the Lord Jesus. This word is usually translated coming. So His elaboration would not be thought odd at all if it contained matters pertaining to His [coming] or parousia and of the consummation of the age. They ASKED Him about these things. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

PaulK,Concerning the 144,000 raptured and standing on Mt. Zion in Rev. 14:1-5 you object:

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On the contrary. They are standing on Mount Zion (verse 1) and hear a voice from Heaven.

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The SOUND heard out of heaven is the SOUND of the 144,000 SINGING. The SONG that they sing solemnly, reverently is the SOUND heard out of heaven. Because their experience is UNIQUE the song that they enjoy is UNIQUE.I am not sure why you would think that the sound heard by John coming out of heaven is something OTHER than the singing of that group of overcoming believers.That they are standing on a Heavenly Mt. Zion would not be unlike the writer of Hebrews telling the saints that they have come to Mt. Zion - the city of the living God and church of the firstborn ones in Hebrews 12:22 He doesn't mean that they have physically come to Jerusalem's Mt. Zion in the land of Israel geographically. It should mean that being given to the NEW COVENANT they have come in their hearts to the seat of government which has its source in Heaven.What is significant about the rapture of Revelation 14:1-5 is that the Bible does not describe the physical removing of their journey. Rather where their HEART has been for a long time they simply find one day their BODIES are there also.The point here is that they were living heavenly lives on earth following the Lamb where ever He goes. And as Enoch walked right away with God following his heart, these overcomers too suddenly are physically residing exactly where their hearts and minds were.This should remind us of Colossians 3:1. It is the principle I emphasize here rather than the interpretation of Col. 3:1-4Towards the end of this age a remnant of overcoming saints must be walking on the earth yet with hearts and minds upon the heavenly things - upon Christ reigning from Heaven. One day where their heart dwells, God will reward them by transporting their bodies there as well.To them Rapture should not be a great shock. They burst forth singing a unique song corresponding to their unique normal experience of living Christ while on earth.For this reason Revelation 14 does not describe them physically GOING UP. It only says they were purchased from the earth (14:3). Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

PaulK,Concerning the suggested certainty of the Son of Man being manifest to them you wrote:

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Certainly ? They appear to be the 144,000 from Revelation 7:1-8 and it isn’t at all clear what happens to them between the two chapters.

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The number used is the same. But the nature of the two groups is not the same. If one assumes that the 144,000 of the twelve tribes are exactly the 144,000 firstfruits of chapter 14 then you would have a case.But the two groups are not the same. That is how I would argue. Though I hope any argument on these details would have the effect of stirring up our love of Christ one way or another.At another time I will give my reasons for not considering these two groups identical. One seem more related to the old testament covenant and the other to the new testament. The 144,000 of the tribes of Israel are elect preserved Jews who pass through the great tribulation.The group of Firstfruits are found in heaven just prior to the major events of the great tribulation. Both on earth and in heaven God and the Lamb have a powerful testimony of a remnant of overcomers preserved by His sovereignty.I wrote above

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The Son of Man is revealed to the FIRSTFRUITS prior to the Son of Man being revealed to the HARVEST. So the phrase "on the day in which the Son of Man is revealed" (Luke 17:30) cannot be insisted to mean only ONE rapture.

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You:

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It doesn’t mean any sort of Rapture.

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And your reply -

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Whatever you believe it is a fact that the words are directed at the members of one Church - at the time the Revelation was written. It promises that some of them will be spared the hour of trial which is coming soon - when Jesus returns. Yet Jesus did not return any time soon, let alone within the lifetime of those people.

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"Soon" is largly subjective to human expectations. With God one day is as a thousand years. One thousand years is like one day. Two thousand is like two short days to God who is eternal.The fact of the matter is that when Jesus does return physically to the planet MOST human beings will think of it as TOO SOON rather than as too late. The human reaction to being confronted with the reality of the Son of God arriving is effected by our inward readiness to meet Him.IF Christ were to return this afternoon, probably most human beings on earth would long that they had had just a little more time to prepare.At any rate throughout the church age their have always been at least some who have the crown of reward already. Jesus exhorts them to be careful that what they have already arrived at they would allow no one to take away from them. You might say "What a let down! Jesus did not return in their life time as the letter implies."No matter, for the crown of their faithfulness is already theirs to enjoy. These who were actually of the church in Philadelphia who expired in centuries past will still enjoy an early resurrection and rapture with the corporate Manchild in Revelation 12 of those who overcame. They are resurrected and raptured before the thousand and two hundred and sixty days of the great tribulation begins. (Rev. 12:6) .The rapture of deceased overcoming saints is depicted in Revelation 12 as the Manchild.The rapture of the living overcoming saints in those days is depicted in Revelation 14 as the Firstfruits.Early rapture or resurrection and rapture is God's seal that both in past ages and at that present age He approves of the testimony of those who walked with Christ as to virtually being living heavenly lives while on earth. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Not what you meant to say. 12,000 times 12,000 is 144,000,000 or 144 million.

Thankyou NoNukes.My sloppy error there.

The asking disciples of Matthew 24 have a status as Jews and a status as new covenant Christians.We should see two major sections of the End Time Prophecy of Matthew 24 - 25 1.) Matthew 24:1-31 is Christ addressing the disciples as to their status as Jewish members of the nation of Israel. 2.) Matthew 24:32-25:46 is Christ addressing the disciples as to their status as regards the new covenant church.The dividing line between verses 31 and versse 32 of Matthew 24.If this distinction is not grasped much confusion will result in trying to figure out the details of the end times and Christ's Second Coming.In the first section of Matthew 24:1-31 more literal interpretation is called for.In the second section of Matthew 24:32-25:46 more spiritual interpretation is called for. The former section relates more towards Israel as a nation. The latter section relates to the church.In 24:1-31 WINTER in verse 20 is to be taken literally. It is difficult to flee in the literal WINTER season.SABBATH too is literal in meaning. Yet SUMMER in the second section in verse 32 is to be spiritually interpreted. This SUMMER there means the soon coming of the kingdom.FIG TREE refers to the nation of Israel.
INNER CHAMBERS of verse 26 must be interpreted literally in the section pertaining to Israel. But in verse 43 in the second section THE HOUSE is to be interpreted spiritually.Therefore the section before Matthew 24:32 is full of a Jewish backround.
"holy place, (v.13) " "in Judea,(v.16)" and "sabbath" (v.20) are localized and specifically restricted references. But in the second section pertaining to the Christian church the spiritualization of terms removes these restrictions.The section pertaining to the disciples standing as Jewish Isrealites are physical in nature. But those things mentioned in the section at 24:32-25:46 are moral in nature. Ie. nations, mothers with children and children mentioned in the first part are physical or literal. Virgins, servants and house-holder, goats, sheep mentioned in chapter 25 are moral in nature. Spiritualization because of the spiritual nature of the church is prevalent in the section from 24:32-25:46."Go ... forth" in the first section is literal while "went forth" in the second section is more moral and spiritual in character.Only physical fleeing is required in the first section with no moral requirement.
But watching, readiness are moral actions and responsibilities of the church.For length's sake I conclude here this post. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Important summary of previous post:

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1.) Matthew 24:1-31 is Christ addressing the disciples as to their status as Jewish members of the nation of Israel.

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2.) Matthew 24:32-25:46 is Christ addressing the disciples as to their status as regards the new covenant church.

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In trying to figure out the details of His Second Coming this dividing line should be adhered to. Otherwise much confusion will result.

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I am not sure I get your point.

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That’s apparently because you can’t remember what you said.You claimed that The Son of Man being revealed only meant that a few people would be Raptured and he would be revealed to them. However there is no mention of anyone being Raptured, nor any suggestion that the Revelation would be restricted to a very few (who already believed anyway).

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The SOUND heard out of heaven is the SOUND of the 144,000 SINGING.

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Since they are standing on Mount Zion and only one voice is heard from Heaven that seems unlikely.A voice from Heaven sings the song and they join in.

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He doesn't mean that they have physically come to Jerusalem's Mt. Zion in the land of Israel geographically. It should mean that being given to the NEW COVENANT they have come in their hearts to the seat of government which has its source in Heaven.

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That is your interpretation but it is hardly clear. The fact that they are said to be standing on Mount Zion while the voice is heard from Heaven suggests otherwise.

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What is significant about the rapture of Revelation 14:1-5 is that the Bible does not describe the physical removing of their journey. Rather where their HEART has been for a long time they simply find one day their BODIES are there also.

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So you say, but that is nowhere in the text. There is no mention of any Rapture at all.

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Towards the end of this age a remnant of overcoming saints must be walking on the earth yet with hearts and minds upon the heavenly things - upon Christ reigning from Heaven. One day where their heart dwells, God will reward them by transporting their bodies there as well.

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Colossians 3:1 does not mention any Rapture either.

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For this reason Revelation 14 does not describe them physically GOING UP. It only says they were purchased from the earth (14:3).

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Or maybe it doesn’t say that the were Raptured because it doesn’t mean to say that they were Raptured. Especially if they are the 144,000 from Revelation 7 which seems very likely

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The number used is the same. But the nature of the two groups is not the same. If one assumes that the 144,000 of the twelve tribes are exactly the 144,000 firstfruits of chapter 14 then you would have a case

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But I don't assume it, I conclude it based on the evidence of the text.Aside from the number the 144,000 are sealed to God on the forehead in Revelation 7 and those in Revelation 14 have the name of God on their foreheads.And why should the 144,000 of Revelation 7 not be considered the firstfruits - is there any significant group set aside before then ? (In the actual text of the Revelation, that is not in your assumptions)

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The group of Firstfruits are found in heaven just prior to the major events of the great tribulation

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If you mean Revelation 14 it neither says that they are in Heaven, nor occurs before the Tribulation.

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"Soon" is largly subjective to human expectations. With God one day is as a thousand years. One thousand years is like one day. Two thousand is like two short days to God who is eternal.

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When speaking to humans, human timescales would be appropriate. And promising that some among them will be preserved from an event that will not occur until long after all of them are dead seems to be more than a little disingenuous.

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You claimed that The Son of Man being revealed only meant that a few people would be Raptured and he would be revealed to them. However there is no mention of anyone being Raptured, nor any suggestion that the Revelation would be restricted to a very few (who already believed anyway).

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That is not exactly what I said. But I think my point was that the phrase "on the day when the Son of Man is revealed" should be some rationale to insist that there could only be one rapture or that there is no rapture. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Since they are standing on Mount Zion and only one voice is heard from Heaven that seems unlikely.

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A voice from Heaven sings the song and they join in.

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I didn't say that there is literally only ONE VOICE heard. Come on. Romans 15:6 is the apostles exhortation to praise God with one accord and one mouth. The corporate praising and singing of the raptured firstfruits is like this. The oneness is in the blending, the unity, the harmony, the one accord of the ones suddenly found there singing before Christ.Some of us have experienced this kind of unity in rejoicing and singing unto God. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I see in most of your other comments a knee-jerk contrarian attitude.i won't be playing whack-a-mole for each one.
You're welcomed to interpret Revelation 14 differently if you feel to.I have no doubt that "FIRSTFRUITS" and "HARVEST" relate to maturity in growth. And as in the typology in the Old Testament each was reaped and removed from the field in which they were growing.But that the actual word rapture is not mentioned, is true. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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I don't mean to be promoting any notion of cowardice or easy escape

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I didn't mean that you were. I sometimes write preemptively. I know that some view the whole matter of God taking some up and out of the world seems to them contrary to the Gospel.

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but Jesus does promise to save some from the "hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth" which surely makes it clear that is the better option.

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And this matter has two sides to it. One is a matter of love towards Christ. And the other is a matter of spiritual strategic warfare.The sudden appearance of the FIRSTFRUITS in Revelation 14 heaven highlights the aspect of love towards Christ.The sudden resurrection and rapture of the MANCHILD in Revelation 12 highlights more the spiritual warfare.On one hand LOVE is a motivation for an early rapture to take place.
On the other hand a strategic taking away of more ground of the Devil is a motivation.In this way Revelation 14 and Revelation 12 both involved pre-tribulation rapture. But the two characteristics of them are distinct.I already showed that the bridal garment of the wife who prepares herself is also her fighting garment as the Lord's accompanying army.Compare Revelation 19:8 with 19:14Varied aspects need to be revealed in this revelation.
There is man man in God's image.
And the is man made to exercise dominion on God's behalf.There is the love of His people to match Him correspondingly, romantically.
And there is the authoritative representation to subdue His enemy Satan. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Faith,

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If I should be left behind I would want to be praying for courage and strength the whole time, for me and all those with me because certainly many of us will die some horrific deaths during that time, and if we manage to survive to see the Lord's return it isn't going to be easy.

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In other words, I don't want to minimize the Tribulation. If Jesus tells us God will shorten it because otherwise nobody would survive it we need to take seriously that it will be far beyond any of the afflictions we soft westerners have had to face. Certainly, developing the courage to go through it would be a great character builder though, so I can be of two minds about this.

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However, at least out of mercy I nevertheless want to exhort those who are not Christians and those Christians who are living below spiritual par to exert themselves toward the Rapture.

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These things may happen in our lifetime. But we do not know for certain that they will.The Christian experiences death to self and removal of his or her heart from the world unto God every time he or she turns the heart to the Lord Jesus.His word to Philadelphia is a word to Christians in brotherly love. They are not spiritual giants but have a little strength and some faithfulness to His precious promises. The door is opened before such which no one is able to shut.They are coming into His purpose to build his living building and be integral constituents of His church.Even two or three gathered into His name may be built together in love and in the Holy Spirit. Pray for your relatives. i don't think we should panic. But we experience daily turning our hearts to Christ to be more and more conformed to His image by the transforming Holy Spirit. Let us each day request that the Lord Jesus apportion to us each day's degree of beholding and reflecting Him. His Spirit will change our image to be like Him by degrees. This is a life long process for the lover of Christ. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.