Christianity and the End Times

First -To clarify WHAT is the CAUSE of WHAT, I will now walk backwards from the great tribulation to prove that the pre-tribulation rapture is its very CAUSE.Here is the great tribulation in Rev. 13 Satan on the earth summons up the Antichrist to vest his authority to him.From Revelation 12:18-13:1
But the CAUSE of this is BEFORE. Satan coming down to earth with great rage.The previous - Revlation 12:12b
But this strategic defeat was CAUSED by the realization in practicality of Christ's kingdom and power arriving.The previous - Revelation 12:10But the CAUSE of the kingdom's coming NOW and Satan's coming down in great rage is his being FORCED down by Michael the archangel and his good angels.The previous - Revelation 12:7-9
Now walking backwards we come to the critical part in the chapter.
The CAUSE of Michael going to war and prevailing is the rapture of the Man-child up to God and to His throne.The previous - Revelation 12:5 By walking backwards we can see the cause and effect of the series of events. Satan knew the significance of the Man-child being brought forth. And for this reason throughout the ages he has stood before the people of God to PREVENT that man-child from coming into existence.This goes for Jesus Christ as its Head AND for all the overcoming saints for whom Jesus Christ is their salvation, source, empowerer, grace, Forerunner, captain of salvation and Leader. We walked backwards to see HOW then the great tribulation is CAUSED by a pre-tribulation rapture of overcoming saints.It is the overcoming saints who will give the command for Michael and the good angels to fight against the Devil who must be driven out from before God as the accuser of the church and the entire Universal Bright Woman of all God's saints.This is a matter of spiritual warfare. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

If we seek to LIVE Christ - receiving Him in faith, and if we also pray the prayers for the defeat of His enemy, in principle we are doing our part as the man-child.In principle we are setting our selves aside for the sake of Christ having His kingdom and we are touching the STRONGER part of the Woman.Yet we would be Christians only doing what was our duty to do.
We would be simpy coming up to the expected standard in seeking to be overcomers in Christ.

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This means that before the great tribulation a group of saints are raptured.

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I believe that I understand your claim. However your assertion was that the manchild specifically represented the brethren of Revelation 12:10-11, refers to a literal Rapture and precedes the Tribulation. However your explication of the vision of verses 1-5 is sadly lacking, offering no explanation of why it should mean all this.

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I do not mean to communicate that the ones raptured are BRETHREN but the ones left on the earth are NOT BRETHREN.

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And yet you argued that all were left on Earth. The quote has already been given.

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I can stand by this because PLURAL brotherS means a group.

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I do not - and never have denied that the brethren are a group, of course - and it would be silly to suggest that it did. What I question is the assertion that the manchild really does represent the brethrenof verses 10-11

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HOW DO I KNOW THAT THE "THEM, THEIR, THEY, BROTHERS" mean a corporate man-child caught up to God's throne in heaven ?

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I think it is the better interpretation. It may not be the traditional or popular interpretation in Christiandom.

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Yes, you think it is better. But then you thought that there was a pre-tribulation Rapture in Matthew 24. Your opinions are hardly reliable.

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I believe that I understand your claim. However your assertion was that the manchild specifically represented the brethren of Revelation 12:10-11, refers to a literal Rapture and precedes the Tribulation. However your explication of the vision of verses 1-5 is sadly lacking, offering no explanation of why it should mean all this.

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I don't see anything "sadly lacking".What is "sadly lacking" is any effect you have to invalidate a very good interpretation of the symbols of Revelation 12. Try as you may.I have yet to see a better alternative from you.

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And yet you argued that all were left on Earth. The quote has already been given.

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This is nothing more but your misunderstanding of what I wrote.
I take some responsibility for wording which gave you a misunderstanding.But I will not do so perpetually if you want to remain in misunderstanding as some face saving measure on your part.And I still see no better interpretation from you then -Of the universal mystical Body of Christ - Some remnant (dead in Christ) will be resurrected and raptured AND some remnant (alive ) will be raptured to Christ.And of the SAME mystical Body of Christ - Some remain deceased and in Hades - "dead in Christ".And of that SAME mystical Body of Christ - Some, living at the time of the pre-tribulation rapture, are LEFT upon the earth to pass through the great tribulation.This has been my intention to communicate from the beginning.
I have changed NOTHING.
I have clarified against any possible misunderstanding.And I am willing to see YOUR alternative and better viewpoint of the chapter.I wrote:

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I can stand by this because PLURAL brotherS means a group.

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You respond:

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I do not - and never have denied that the brethren are a group, of course - and it would be silly to suggest that it did. What I question is the assertion that the manchild really does represent the brethrenof verses 10-11

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The "questioning" has been addressed.I told you what I did NOT mean to imply.
All believers in the chapter are brothers.The fact of the matter is that any OVERCOMING ones must be BESIDE those in the Woman left upon the earth. Those saints alive and on earth still and who BEING overcome by the enemies, for all intents and purposes.So it is quite logical. For some to have overcome corresponds to some being resurrected - raptured - IE, brought forth by the entire mystical Body of Christ.Your version of "Suddenly some overcoming saints are mentioned. But we don't have a clue who they are " is inferior and arbitrary in logic.If you say "Well they are in heaven" you inch closer to what I explain.
They are in Heaven because they were caught up to God and to His throne as a Man-child.I asked you before to present evidence that there are people in heaven before this catching up. I think silence was your response.Since silence on this is your response, I offer the logical explanation that the overcomers are in heaven because a thousand two hundred and sixty days before the close of the age, they were either resurrected and raptured or living at that time and raptured alive. Revelation 12 and 14 cover both.I wrote:

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HOW DO I KNOW THAT THE "THEM, THEIR, THEY, BROTHERS" mean a corporate man-child caught up to God's throne in heaven ?
I think it is the better interpretation. It may not be the traditional or popular interpretation in Christiandom.

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Your reply:

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Yes, you think it is better. But then you thought that there was a pre-tribulation Rapture in Matthew 24. Your opinions are hardly reliable.

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I still think there is a pre-great tribulation rapture in Matthew 24:40,41.
What makes you think I changed my view?It certainly was not your "say-so" that I am wrong, as you wrote to some other poster. That didn't effect me to change my view.I STILL teach that the TAKEN in Matthew 24:40 - 44 , specifically the TWO men in the field and the TWO women grinding at the mill are taken suddenly away BEFORE the start of the great tribulation.I did not assume YOU changed YOUR mind.
I don't know why you assumed that I changed mine.So we agree to disagree and move on. I don't feel to go over it again with the same person.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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I don't see anything "sadly lacking".

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Your blindness is your problem. In what sense is the dragon waiting to devour the dead? If it is intended literally, why is there no mention of any resurrection. If it is not, then why should we believe that being taken up to Heaven is literal ?

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It may be "sadly lacking" is any effect you have to invalidate a very good interpretation of the symbols of Revelation 12

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You may like that interpretation but it is hardly the only one, nor is it obviously better.

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Your version of "Suddenly some overcoming saints are mentioned. But we don't have a clue who they are " is inferior and arbitrary in logic.

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Assuming that they are represented by the manchild tells us no more about who they are.

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If you say "Well they are in heaven" you inch closer to what I explain.
They are in Heaven because they were caught up to God and to His throne as a Man-child.

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In your opinion. But why should they not be the true Christians on Earth, some of whom have died? Who overcome not with military strength but by remaining true to their faith, no matter what ?

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I asked you before to present evidence that there are people in heaven before this catching up. I think silence was your response.

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I believe that my answer was that I never claimed that there were any humans in heaven. Do you discount Angels as persons ? Or the three persons of the Trinity ?

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I still think there is a pre-tribulation rapture in Matthew 24.
What makes you think I changed my view?

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I didn’t assume that you had. But clinging to an obvious falsehood doesn’t make you look any better.

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I STILL teach that the TAKEN in Matthew 24:40 - 44 specifically the TWO men in the field and the TWO women grinding at the mill are taken suddenly away BEFORE the start of the great tribulation.

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And Matthew 24 verses 37, 42 and 44 all say that that event occurs at the Second Coming which occurs after the Tribulation according to verses 30 and 33.There simply is no doubt about that.

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Your blindness is your problem. In what sense is the dragon waiting to devour the dead?

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The dragon throughout the ages has been waiting to devour the saints as they lived unto God.For example - Cain killed Abel. Satan instigated Cain to do away with this overcoming one while he lived.Of course Satan would like that any departed saints would REMAIN in Hades. But though he continues his opposition to the Body of saints in this, Jesus has the KEYS of death and of Hades to release His saints at will.Christ, in resurrection and glory declares to John - Satan desires to kill God's people with spiritual death, with physical death, and to keep them in Hades. This is his opposition to the whole mystical body of Christ throughout the ages. Redemption cures the problem of man's alienation in guilt from God.
Regeneration cures spiritual death.
Transformation cures the damage of man's soul because of SIN.
And Resurrection with the keys of death and Hades is the answer to the problem of God's saints being held forever there.The standing of the dragon against the Universal Bright Woman is Satan's opposition to God's people at every and any stage.

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If it is intended literally, why is there no mention of any resurrection.

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I am not sure what you mean here. The revelation is made known to us BY SIGNS. (Rev. 1:1)Some discernment and skill I exercise to determine how literal to take the details.Lamb of God obviously does not mean a four footed creature with wool and a little tail. Revelation 12:10's Lamb is a symbol of the Redeemer Jesus Christ.Yes, I interpret "was caught up to God and to His throne" to indicate rapture.Since the overcomers apparently DIED - "... and they loved not their soul-life even unto DEATH" , I include RESURRECTION with RAPTURE in the catching up of the man-child.

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If it is not, then why should we believe that being taken up to Heaven is literal ?

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It is the best interpretation. Whoever the man-child IS, he or they have a destiny in that chapter different from the rest of the woman's seed being persecuted on earth. I believe it says CAUGHT UP TO GOD AND TO HIS THRONE because simply to be physcially removed is not the point.Spiritually in thier hearts they lived unto God overcomingly and were before His throne in their hearts overcomingly. The point is that they are suddenly physically taken to where their HEART was spiritually during their lives.One could suggest that CAUGHT UP TO GOD AND TO HIS THRONE .But you won't definitely maintain that because you think it is safer to remain uncommitted and simply hunt for problems in my explanation.It is not likely that overcomers being spiritually caught up to God and to His throne yet physically remaining on earth, would somehow be EXEMPT from the wrath of Satan.Now, you may complain at the next thing I write. But for the sake of some readers it will be helpful.Some of those remaining on earth will be martyed as the overcomers. Some will not love THIER soul-life unto death. These are seen in Revelation 15 as the saints standing on the sea of glass in 15:2-4. These are the persecuted saints left on the earth WHO were martyred (See Rev. 14:13) . Though they missed the early rapture some became equally VICTORIOUS (15:2) in the great tribulation.They stand over all the dreadful judgment of God and not shaken by the Antichrist.So the end times not being a simple matter, is covered in various visions as to its details in Revelation, the book of SIGNS.

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You may like that interpretation but it is hardly the only one, nor is it obviously better.

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And you seem to take on the job of offering no alternative but settle into the safe role of iterative skeptic.And I never assumed there were not other ways of viewing these things. Of course there are.I wrote:

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Your version of "Suddenly some overcoming saints are mentioned. But we don't have a clue who they are " is inferior and arbitrary in logic.

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Your retort:

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Assuming that they are represented by the manchild tells us no more about who they are.

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Taking into account all of Scripture's history of spiritual warfare, the SIGN of the manchild tells us much. They are a remnant of those who rise to the expected standard of victory over God's enemy through God's salvation.Not only was the seed of the woman foretold to crush the head of the ancient serpent Gen 3:15) . But the prevailing saints in the normal church life will in coordination crush the serpent under their corporate feet. Christ is made the Head over all things TO THE CHURCH This phrase TO THE CHURCH strongly implies a kind of transmission. The church SHARES in what Christ has obtained and attained. The Head and the Body are one mystical entity.And some advance to secure the promises which eventually will be the inheritance of ALL the saints.The writer of Hebrews exhorts all the believers to be imitators of the ones overcoming and who are inheriting the promises. IF you have a better way to follow Jesus, you pursue that.
Some of us want to learn to live and expect the victory of the Man-child of overcomers, whether we live or die.Is there more?
Reminding me that I wrote -

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If you say "Well they are in heaven" you inch closer to what I explain.
They are in Heaven because they were caught up to God and to His throne as a Man-child.

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Your reply:

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In your opinion. But why should they not be the true Christians on Earth, some of whom have died? Who overcome not with military strength but by remaining true to their faith, no matter what ?

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We have here, I think, a couple of layers of misunderstanding.The actual driving down of the spiritual being Satan is done by other angels.
This is not the raptured saints pushing him down per se.But the ANGELS are the servants of the saints carrying out the petitions and prayers of spiritual warfare on behalf of them. The angels carry out the SERVICE of driving down Satan and his angels on behalf of the overcoming human saints.That part is not a human military matter. What about the defeat of Antichrist and his armies? That is done by the breath of Christ's mouth at Armageddon. No, I do not believe human made missiles and bombs defeat Satan and his antichrist and false prophet.Christ, accompanied by His army of overcoming victors from the ages follow Him as He defeats the evil forces with His very manifestation of His coming and His speaking. He is calling all believers to accompany Him. Some will. That is all the time I will give for discussion right now. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I think it's a mistake to lump every villain together under the name of Satan. Do you think the Big Bad Wolf that troubled the three little pigs was the same Big Bad Wolf that troubled Little Red Riding Hood? 'Cause he got killed both times, if I recall correctly.Mashing up unrelated stories can create some pretty convoluted theology.

it's not so much lumping the villains together as it is describing the same spirit that infiltrates them.The man who cheats on his wife may not be the same man that steals from his employer, nor may the reasons be the same. I would argue, however, that there is a common spirit or vibe or inner reason. Same with good. The man who stops to help a motorist change a tire is not the same man who gives the homeless man spare change, but the inner vibe is similar, and it is NOT the same inner vibe that cheats or steals.

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The dragon throughout the ages has been waiting to devour the saints as they lived unto God

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Glib, but hardly a convincing argument that the manchild represents a particular group of believers.

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I am not sure what you mean here. The revelation is made known to us BY SIGNS. (Rev. 1:1)
Some discernment and skill I exercise to determine how literal to take the details.

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In other words you simply take it literally or not as convenient. We know your discernment is inferior to simply reading the text so it is hardly something to boast of.

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It is the best interpretation. Whoever the man-child IS, he or they have a destiny in that chapter different from the rest of the woman's seed being persecuted on earth.

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According to you, their destiny is the same. Or at least I see no reason why all those who remain to be persecuted should fail - not least the rewards promised to those who come through to The Second Coming without falling.

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Taking into account all of Scripture's history of spiritual warfare, the SIGN of the manchild tells us much. They are a remnant of those who rise to the expected standard of victory over God's enemy through God's salvation.

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You can get that from verse 11 - but not from equating them with the manchild.

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That part is not a human military matter. What about the defeat of Antichrist and his armies? That is done by the breath of Christ's mouth at Armageddon. No, I do not believe human made missiles and bombs defeat Satan and his antichrist and false prophet.

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But indeed you attempt to equate two different uses of overcome. The beast is given the power to overcome the saints by use of force. You held that to contradict the way the saints overcome the devil in verse 11 - but there is no contradiction the two may go together.

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The woman may be a little less obvious but I don't see any clear reason not to interpret her as Israel, which gave birth to the Manchild.

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Well, if she is a symbol ONLY of Israel, then how would you interpret these things?Clothed with the sun.
The moon underneath her feet.
On her head a crown of twelve stars.

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Yes there is a connection with Joseph's dream but that was also about Israel.

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There is a definite similarity to the dream of Genesis 37:9.
There Joseph's father and mother were the sun and moon.
And his brothers were the eleven stars.The family was the totality of God's elect on earth. I don't mean that God had no other people on earth at the time. But the main project of a consecrated collective with a covenant relationship with God was Joseph's family.Revelation is not just the conclusion of the Old Testament but of both covenants. So the principle of the totality of His people who have ever lived is a more fitting symbol.This universal woman is the same as the Wife in eternity of New Jerusalem . New Jerusalem has foundations with the names of the twelve apostles of Christ and gates inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. (Revelation 21:12-14) The woman in chapter 12 is that same woman before the consummation of all the ages.Now it is true that Christ came out of Israel.
But Christ came also out of Eve who was not a Jew or of Israel. The principle of Satan in opposition to the woman is established even before Israel comes into existence. So there is an even more universal entity which stands to be opposed by Satan. Israel is certainly an important part of this.But "the woman" includes Eve who was a recipient of the promise of God.The non-Israelite patriarchs before the Law of Moses should be a part of this group. Abel, Enosh, Enoch, Noah, even Job predate Abraham yet are of a collective which are set apart from the world unto God.All of these, including Israel, as people of faith brought forth Christ, though ethnically Jesus was Jewish and of Israel. He was also of the heroes of faith.These heroes of faith form the twelve stars above the head of the Woman.
The age of Israel - the moon underneath her feet as the Law is subject to the saved.
The age of the Church - the sun clothing the majority of her body.But if she only represents Israel, how would you interpret the twelve stars, the sun and the moon ?

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The twelve stars suggest the twelve tribes. Also, Israel is often depicted as having labor pains. Laboring to bring forth the Messiah would be my interpretation, but also even laboring to bring forth the New Creation.

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I agree that twelve stars could mean the twelve tribes.
How then about the sun and the moon?
And why would the moon be beneath her feet.And as for the new creation, please remember that if ANYONE is in Christ there is a new creation. (Second Cor. 5:17) . So the new creation is headed up by Christ but includes all who are IN Christ - a collective.The overcomers enjoy this being a new creation to the point of being the stronger component within the whole body of God's people throughout the ages.The new creation of Second Cor. 5:17 is a group of "anyones" who have partaken of this transformation into one NEW man Of course Christ is the BEGINNING of this new creation as being the Amen the beginning of the [new] creation of God - I believe that this refers to the resurrected Christ who is the Head and Beginning of the new creation of God.Someone submitted an interesting article on Israel being seen there in Revelation 12. Some of it I had no problem with. But I think it is too limited to make that woman ONLY Israel. Rather she includes Israel, the pre-law patriarchs and heroes of faith and the new covenant church.The ALL have travailed to bring forth victorious ones throughout all of earth's history before the millennial kingdom.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

A question still about is "Could the man-child of Revelation 12 be a collective?"I say Yes indeed.The WIFE of the Lamb in Revelation 19:7 is a singular feature. But this wife who has made herself ready is a collective of overcoming saints. Yet without question this singular "person" His wife is constituted of many "saints". Individually she is many SAINTS who have made themselves ready.
Corporately she is the wife of the Lamb.In comparison a man-child as an individual entity could be constituted with many brothers who are "THEY" who overcame through the full enjoyment of Christ's salvation. (See Rev. 12:10,11) Eventually ALL the saved overcome (Rev. 21:7) . So in eternity future the Wife and Bride "person" is also a collective as a CITY - ie. many individuals. Remember CITY really means here many people rather than buildings.Recall how the Gospel of Matthew mentioned that .Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

If it was just describing some inner spirit, you wouldn't have to name it "Satan" in one place and "serpent" in another and "dragon" in another.In Treasure Island you don't lump Blind Pew and Long John Silver together even though they both have similar spirits. You recognize that they are separate characters in similar roles at different times and places, sometimes using similar means and sometimes using different means. Imagine how convoluted the "inner meaning" of Treasure island would be if you believed there was only one pirate but in different guises. You often say you "would" argue something and then you don't. The "inner vibe" is just our instinct to preserve the species and our instinct to preserve ourselves. There is no fine line between them.

To treat the Manchild as a collective should require SOMETHING SOMEWHERE in the scripture itself to lead to that conclusion, and I don't see anything.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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To treat the Manchild as a collective should require SOMETHING SOMEWHERE in the scripture itself to lead to that conclusion, and I don't see anything.

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I see.
Well, let's consider some things. I do not ask you if you fully understand all the following promises. I only ask you if you can see a possible COLLECTIVE in any or all of them.In the opening chapters 2 and 3 let me ask you: 1.)
Could you consider all those qualified to enjoy this promise as possibly a collective ? 2.)
Could you consider those recipients of this promise as a possible collective? 3.)
Could all those rising to the level of this promise be thought of as a collective? 4.)
Could you think of all those who thus qualified for this promise to be a collective? 5.)
Could you consider all those who receive this reward as possibly forming a collective? 6.)
Could all the recipients of this great promise be imagined as a COLLECTIVE ? 7.)
Could you think of all those receiving this honor as a collective ?Could you think of all recipients of the seven promises TOGETHER as forming a COLLECTIVE ?Do you have a reason that each of these groups AND/OR all of them together COULD NOT be thought of as a COLLECTIVE ?One more in this post. Now here is a collective - the church . Yet WITHIN the collective there is manifest some who are approved, causing a smaller collective within the larger.Can you conceive that within the larger collective of the church there could exist a smaller collective WITHIN her who stand out before God and being particularly approved ?IF you could consider that, positively these overcomers could be a collective within a larger collective, then I think you come closer to thinking there could be a stronger part, a kind of Man-child as a collective within the larger collective of the mystical whole Body of Christ.Am I right? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Sounds plausible. What percentage of the global population would we imagine the church roughly to comprise?What are the basic qualifications for this group? Belief or works or both?Or was the church chosen by God?I can understand how a smaller group within the church was (were) overcomers.