Christianity and the End Times

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I just don't see anything in the Manchild other than the single Person of Christ. All the other things are saying I have no problem with, I just don't see any connection between them and the Manchild.

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Do you then have any interpretive thoughts about the significance of a thousand two hundred and sixty days immediately following either the BIRTH of Jesus or the ASCENSION of Jesus ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't read it as necessarily immediately following. All those references to that period of time seem to point to the Tribulation period, but perhaps you could say how you see it and we can move on to that topic.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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I don't read it as necessarily immediately following. All those references to that period of time seem to point to the Tribulation period, but perhaps you could say how you see it and we can move on to that topic.

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I agree with you that the thousand two hundred and sixty days refer to the great tribulation. Since Jesus Christ was born, resurrected and ascended nearly two thousands years ago, the catching up to God and God's throne cannot refer to those events. Another birth or ascension of Jesus is out of the question.
The birth or ascension of another person is also unlikely.So a pre-great tribulation rapture of some CORPORATE entity logically fits the scenario very well.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The principle of a remnant minority as a Man-child (Rev 12) or a group of Firstfruits (Rev 14) is foreshadowed in the New Jerusalem in partial during the millennium as a reward to a minority of overcomers. The reward is conditioned on OVERCOMING.To the overcomers in the church in Philadelphia complete identification as New Jerusalem is a reward during the millennial kingdom. But this is a minority of all the total saved.Christ organically constitutes them as intergral pillars in His living dwelling place - His temple.
Christ organically writes on them His name.
Christ organically writes on them the name of His eternal city.
Christ organically writes on them His new name.So God uses the thousand year millennium as also a time to perfect the defeated saints. These mature too but late. The former stand in place of the final consummation of His eternal purpose - during the millennium.Brother Witness Lee explains in the book The Overcomers how these ones enjoy a foretaste of a fuller reality to involve ALL the believers after the one thousand years of Christ's millennial reign. (My spacing below) Copied from - The Overcomers by Witness Lee, Living Stream Ministry, Titles A-Z | LSM Online Publications [My spacing]Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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After some rest I will try to show from the structure of the book of Revelation, that it should be divided into TWO major sections.
The actual end of the end times arrives in chapter 11.
What follows chapter 11 starting with chapter 12 is something of a revisiting of the events previously mentioned with a particular FOCUS on the last three and one half years of the age.

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This is the difference between the scroll in chapter 4 and 5 and the little scroll in chapter 10.

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What we read then in chapters 12 and 13 is something of a rehash of what we have already read about in chapter 9. I speak of Satan being limited from roaming in the spheres of the upper heavens and being driven down to the earth in the last few years of the age before Christ's setting foot on the earth again.

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Please prepared by reading Revelation 9 through 13 or at least chapter 9 and chapters 10 and 11.

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One should wonder why the annocement of the arrival of the kingdom of God seems to come TWICE - Revelation 11:15-18 and Revelation 12:10,11.This was a big problem to me the first few times I studied this book. As I promised I will try to explain this peculiarity. But first I'll place the two announcements together for examination.Others can then suggest their solution to the problem. 1.) At the Seventh Trumpet - Revelation 11:15-18How FINAL this all sounds. The prophecy seems to reach its grand conclusion right here. The kingdom of God has come to the earth forever.But in the next chapter there seems to be a retrace as if the movie was reset to an earlier time. And the announcement of the kingdom comes with much STILL happening on earth to secure it.Why this reset? For years I thought this was a big puzzling anticlimax in the next chapter 12. 2.) At the Rapture of the Man-child - Revelation 12:10-12 What do some of you think of this duel announcement of the final coming of the kingdom of God ? Why the seeming anti-climax starting in chapter 12 ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

jaywill, I don't want to argue too much about the different theologies, and I haven't studied these things enough to have a really clear opinion about it anyway, BUT when Witness Lee pictures some of the Church having to suffer to earn their place in the Kingdom it sounds a lot like the Catholic idea of Purgatory to me, which is an unbiblical denial of the perfect grace for our salvation given by the death of Christ. Certainly there are stages and degrees of perfection of sanctification, but you can't make our standing before the Lord dependent on those things or you are denying Justification by Faith Alone in Christ's once-for-all sacrifice for sin. If the thief on the cross deserved to be in Paradise with Jesus simply on the basis of acknowledging Him and his own sin, there is no way to justify this additional earning of merit that Lee is talking about.Also, "He who calls on the Name of the LORD shall be saved" shows that same principle: we are saved by HIM on the basis of a sincere simple profession of faith in Him. On this basis I think I'm arguing that you are wrong about only some special class of Overcomers being raptured. I admit there are questions here of course, but there's a way "overcomer" simply means being a true believer rather than some special class of believer.AND, in a number of places the Church, or believers in Christ's sacrifice for our sin, are promised to be kept from the wrath to come upon the whole earth. Meaning that there should not be any genuine believers in Christ in the Tribulation at all, only unbelievers, who may wake up to the truth during that time and be saved.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This is a total shot in the dark because I have to go and reread Revelation 11 and 12, but I think you suggested already, and it is a principle I've heard a lot in relation to the book of Revelation, that such a repetition is an indication that the same event is in view but being discussed from a different angle.

First, Revelation 10:1-11:14 is an aside that ends abruptly and unnaturally. The events described in it are out of chronological sequence - which is restored in 11:15-19. Since it refers to Luke 21, where the time of the gentiles precedes the cosmic signs (verses 24, 25) I conclude that the entire sequence of events precedes Revelation 6:12.The announcement in 11:15-19 seems more a declaration of what is about to happen, than something that has already happened - although there is no reason to suppose any delay.I believe that Revelation 12 goes back, although it is not a literal account. It seems to me likely that the events symbolised overlap with those described in the early part of chapter 11 (i.e. the 1260 day period mentioned in each is the same period of time).The proclamation in Revelation 12 is not a response to the presumed rapture of the manchild - it is explicitly a response to the defeat of the devil and his angels. Thus it is the dwellers in heaven who are to rejoice, not those in Earth who shall still suffer before the kingdom actually arrives there.I consider it unlikely that the two announcements are meant to be the same event. They have similar content, but the circumstances appear to be quite different. And if they are the same event then Revelation 12 does not jump far back in time at all - verses 17 and on follow the announcement.

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jaywill, I don't want to argue too much about the different theologies, and I haven't studied these things enough to have a really clear opinion about it anyway, BUT when Witness Lee pictures some of the Church having to suffer to earn their place in the Kingdom it sounds a lot like the Catholic idea of Purgatory to me, which is an unbiblical denial of the perfect grace for our salvation given by the death of Christ.

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Well, dispensational discipline during the millennial kingdom did not originate with Witness Lee. I also check everything with the word of God. And I have been persuaded that this light has come to the church by the Holy Spirit.Now from what I understand Catholic Purgatory is different from discipline during the millennium. Catholic Purgatory is a purification process upon the deceased DURING the church age, BEFORE the second coming of Christ. And of course there was the matter of selling indulgences to shorten the time departed SOULS spent in Purgatory.What Lee and some other Post Brethren teachers teach is more biblical. AFTER the second coming of Christ, ALL the saved appear before the judgment seat of Christ for a determination of either their reward or discipline during the thousand year millennial kingdom.This has nothing to do with eternal redemption which has been settled for all the saved in the affirmative already. They will never perish forever.But at the commencement of the thousand year kingdom some saints will be rewarded and some saints will suffer loss, though they are still saved. A solid basis for this is found in First Corinthians 3:10-17 . I'm highlighting the most relevant verses below: 1.) All who undergo this examination are already eternally saved. And only the eternally saved are qualified to appear at this judgment. 2.) The quality of life is equated to the quality of building material. Ie. that which can withstand fire verses that which will be consumed by fire. 3.) Building with high quality materials will merit a REWARD in the coming millennial kingdom. 4.) Building with inferior quality materials will cause the saints to SUFFER LOSS. No REWARD is given but they are still saved yet so as through fire.The scope of the words suffer loss is not specific. It is general. It should include any number of appropriate disciplines the wise Father deems necessary to the saved saint. Such suffering of loss is not pertaining to eternity. It is pertaining to the temporary period of the millennial kingdom.It may pertain to some portion of it OR the entire period. But I don't know that much. This discipline is administered after the resurrection and rapture and decided at the beginning of the millennial kingdom.Can you perceive the difference between this and Catholic Purgatory ?

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Certainly there are stages and degrees of perfection of sanctification, but you can't make our standing before the Lord dependent on those things or you are denying Justification by Faith Alone in Christ's once-for-all sacrifice for sin.

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Look again at the verse just supplied to you. The one suffering loss is STILL eternally Justified by Faith and Redeemed.
Reward is different from Gift.One justified by faith may SUFFER LOSS after the second coming of Jesus Christ. First Corinthians 3:15 does no damage to the truth of Justification by Faith. Including the thief on the cross ... WE ALL must be manifest before the judgment seat of Christ. God has the wisdom to sort out what to do with each one of us saved by grace as to our position in the millennial kingdom.Without exception ALL the eternally saved have decision made concerning their position in the millennial kingdom at the bema seat of Christ which is the judgment seat also of God. The bema seat here is like a raised platform used to evaluate someone's life.Remember also that it is possible to receive mercy at this judgment. For the merciful will themselves receive mercy. Do not think for an instance that those justified by faith unto eternal redemption will not be judged according to how they lived their lives in the grace of Christ.Eternal redemption is secure. Reward during the next age of the millennium is not. The Gift is assured. The Reward is optional. And those partaking of the Gift may be saved yet so as through fire, suffering loss.How we judge others during the church age will have a big effect on how we ourselves will be judged by Christ.

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Also, "He who calls on the Name of the LORD shall be saved" shows that same principle: we are saved by HIM on the basis of a sincere simple profession of faith in Him.

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Yes, But does it say he who calls on the name of the Lord is assured to be REWARDED ?Some who called on the name of the Lord will suffer loss yet BE SAVED, yet so as through fire. Witness Lee's invented concept ? No, the concept of First Corinthians 3:15.

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On this basis I think I'm arguing that you are wrong about only some special class of Overcomers being raptured.

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I have repeated a number of times a concept which is difficult for some Christians to grasp. Those who OVERCOME in the Bible are not an elite or a special class ABOVE the standard. They are those who arrive AT the expected standard.Those who overcome may say "We have ONLY done what was our duty to have done."
(See Luke 17:10) I must stop here. But the overcomers only rise to the normal standard of having done what they OUGHT to have done. They are not an elite or super spiritual special class. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : clarification - for a determination of either

I'm studying your reply. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Little Russian dolls are cleverly made dolls which fit inside each other. When you open up one doll inside is another smaller doll like it.In computer programming this might be described as routines being "nested" inside of other routines.If you have ever seen Russian dolls and how they are inside of each other you can see how God constructed the book of Revelation. Certain aspects are nested inside of other aspects. This makes it difficult to always try to see the events as chronologically in order.There are seven seals. But when you come to the seventh seal its contents are seven trumpets. There are then seven trumpets. But when you come to the seventh trumpet its contents include seven bowls. The last of the seven seals is therefore like a Russian doll. When you open it up there are seven trumpets within as its contents. The last of the seven trumpets is also like a Russian doll. When you open it up its contents includes seven bowls.This unusual structure is of God's wisdom. I don't believe the natural mind of man is responsible for this design of Revelation. So when we come to this book expecting to see everything as one unbroken outlay of sequenced chronological events we run in to great difficulties. It is not always like that.To make matters a bit more confusing, there are insertions of visions in between some of the seals and trumpets. For example, between the Sixth and Seventh Trumpets there are inserted some visions.This means at Revelation 10:1 - 11:13 five visions are inserted.1.) Christ coming to possess the earth (Rev. 10:1-7).
2.) John charged to prophesy again (Rev. 10:8-11).
3.) The temple measured and the court cast out (the heavenly temple preserved but the earthly one given to the Gentiles (Rev. 11:1-2)
4.) The two witnesses of God prophesying for a thousand two hundred and sixty days (Rev. 11:3-12).
5.) A great earthquake (Rev. 11:13).After this insertion a resumption of the trumpets picks up again in the blowing of the Seventh Trumpet.The contents of the Seventh Trumpet extends to eternity. And it has both positive contents and negative contents. Part of its negative contents are Seven Bowls of the wrath of God. These seven bowls nested inside of the Seventh Trumpet are the most severe judgments of God upon the earth and men.This is a very brief word on the recursive structure of Revelation - a Seventh Seal whose contents are Seven Trumpets plus a trumpet whose contents are Seven Bowls.So we cannot always understand everything happening as being in strict chronological order. But some things are in sequence. Others are re-examinations of events observed from another angle.The Sixth and Seventh Seals are in chronological sequence. They are consecutive. But there are visions of importance inserted in-between them.This is brief. The comment from The Life Study of Revelation by Witness Lee helps in this IMO. Copied from Titles A-Z | LSM Online PublicationsAbove - means that some cosmic events and calamities will occur before the beginning of the last three and one half year great tribulation. The great tribulation starts with the Fifth Trumpet. The Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Trumpet as the three WOEs are about the great tribulation.It would be a mistake to think that before the great tribulation there could be no cosmic warnings that something is about to happen in the universe.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Compare the inserted vision between the Sixth and Seventh Trumpet with the vision of the events following the rapture of the man-child and expulsion of Satan from heaven. Revelation 11:3 Revelation 12:5,6Both passage speak of the time of the great tribulation. Since they are not TWO consecutive periods they are about the SAME period spoken about with different aspects.Before we read about the man-child rapture followed by Satan coming down to earth with wrath for 1,260 days we read of the two witnesses prophesying for 1,260 days.The great tribulation begins with the first of three WOEs which WOES are Trumpets 5,6, and 7. The first of these three WOEs is the WOE of the coming down of Satan from his expulsion from heaven at the rapture of the man-child. (Rev. 12:7-9, 12) Here in the first WOE of the three WOEs of the last three trumpets is the same event seen in Revelation 12 - IE. Satan coming driven down from heaven in great wrath instigating his Antichrist to come up out of the abyss to torment men. Demonic locusts of some monsterous kind come up out of the pit. But the star FALLEN is Satan. And since it is a personage it says the he opened the pit of the abyss.The fallen star is Satan. The fallen Star who is given the key to the place of demonic spirits is Satan who we will latter read was driven down from heaven at the resurrection and rapture of the man-child.The king over the demonic locusts is Antichrist. So Revelation 12 is revisiting the fallen star in Revelation 8.So Revelation 8 is previewing the expulsion of Satan and his coming down to earth in great wrath.The three WOES of 8:13 together constitute the WOE of 12:12This is one hint into the TWO major sections of this book. The second prophesying being a revisit of the first prophesying with a focus on last three and one half years of the closing age.The three WOES of the great tribulation in chapter 8: The WOE of the great tribulation in chapter 12: Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : of is the word

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The proclamation in Revelation 12 is not a response to the presumed rapture of the manchild - it is explicitly a response to the defeat of the devil and his angels. Thus it is the dwellers in heaven who are to rejoice, not those in Earth who shall still suffer before the kingdom actually arrives there.

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The previous verse 9 and verse 10 should be coupled together to get the effect. This should remind some of when the disciples were casting out demons, Jesus said that he saw Satan falling from heaven like lightening. Luke 10:17-20 This is not a matter of me interpreting Luke 10:17-20 per se. It is a matter of me APPLYING its truth to Revelation 12. 1.) The main rejoicing is that salvation is to those whose names are recorded in heaven. 2.) Nonetheless, joy is to the overcomers who in spiritual warfare, through Jesus Christ, gain authority over Satan and his hosts. 3.) The defeating of Satan under the authority of the overcoming saints is also the plunging of Satan down from heaven in a dramatic way. 4.) The disciples' work is to be an extension of the work of Christ.Though the work of Redemption can only be done by the Lamb of God, Jesus the God-man Redeemer, the work of spiritual warfare He will not do unilaterally alone. Those who prevail in Him to overcome the enemy EXTEND this victory as His companions.The announcement of the kingdom on earth in Revelation 11:15-18 is therefore inseparably related to the announcement in heaven of the prevailing of the overcomers over Satan in their rapture to heaven and Satan's subsequent expulsion.Victory of the kingdom of God starts when His will is done on earth even as it is in heaven.The servant angels of the good type SERVE the overcoming saints. When the man-child is raptured immediately the upper hand of the good angels prevails over the bad ones. And a strategic defeat occurs like a Normandy invasion, against Satan and his hosts.Truth has suddenly prevailed over the liar who with his lies and accusations has deceived the whole inhabited world.

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I consider it unlikely that the two announcements are meant to be the same event. They have similar content, but the circumstances appear to be quite different. And if they are the same event then Revelation 12 does not jump far back in time at all - verses 17 and on follow the announcement.

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They are related. The enemy is hit high and low.He is being limited and driven to further and further limitation which will eventually conclude with him being limited to the eternal damnation of the lake of fire. In successive stages he loses his empire and influence. And he is greatly enraged against Christ and the church because he knows that the overcoming saints will be his eternal demise in the end. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : v.11 should be v.10

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The previous verse 9 and verse 10 should be coupled together to get the effect.

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And verse 9 only reinforces my point.

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This is not a matter of me interpreting Luke 10:17-20 per se. It is a matter of me APPLYING its truth to Revelation 12.

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It is neither. It is using Luke 10:17-20 as an excuse to misrepresent Revelation 12.

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1.) The main rejoicing is that salvation is to those whose names are recorded in heaven

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False. The stated reason for rejoicing is that Satan has fallen and his accusations would therefore cease.

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2.) Nonetheless, joy is to the overcomers who in spiritual warfare, through Jesus Christ, gain authority over Satan and his hosts.

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No, joy is to the heavens and those who dwell in them. Your overcomers are not mentioned.

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3.) The defeating of Satan under the authority of the overcoming saints is also the plunging of Satan down from heaven in a dramatic way.

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It is Michael and his angels who cast the devil out.

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4.) The disciples' work is to be an extension of the work of Christ.

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This really doesn’t seem to be relevant.

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The announcement of the kingdom on earth in Revelation 11:15-18 is therefore inseparably related to the announcement in heaven of the prevailing of the overcomers over Satan in their rapture to heaven and Satan's subsequent expulsion.

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There is no announcement of anyone arriving in Heaven in Revelation 12.

Or maybe it's like recursion. If there's an error in the routine, going through the same routine over and over is likely to multiply the error.