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Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No I don't, I've said all I have to say on it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You think I don't know as much about beliefs as you do? You think I have not experienced supernatural events? You think I am out of touch with what God thinks and how and why? I could really go off on you right now, but I won't because it is likely what the enemy wants me to do. You already "really went off on me." But I wanted to answer this one statement. What I think has nothing to do with experiences, personal beliefs, being "in touch with God" and so on. I think you are extremely deficient in DOCTRINE, as if you just don't know much. GDR has studied a great deal and come to conclusions that are not orthodox or traditional etc., and possibly not even truly Christian. I know this because I HAVE studied a fair amount of doctrine. If this is "getting out of line" in your opinion, that's sad.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Well, Phat, I think it's the best I can do and I'm sorry if it just seems like a bunch of meaningless rants and isn't explaining anything.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Hard to believe this ridiculous discussion is still going on...and on...and on
No Jesus did not tell anyone but that particular young man to give up all. And the Jerusalem church shared all together during the height of persecutions, but there is nothing said to indicate that they were required to give all, and it is specifically said to Ananias and Sapphira that it was not required. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
the early church thought He did. Argue with them. Prove it.
Yet they were punished for not doing it: They were punished for lying about it. You conflate two statements that are different. They shouldn't have held it back but that is not why they were punished and the entire Church disagrees with you about this.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The thing is Christianity teaches the complete opposite of doing harm to anyone, and in fact teaches taking pains ourselves without complaining (I don't claim to be good at it but I love those who are and aspire to be like them). It is one of the things that attracts people to it. So the very idea that God would command a believer to murder someone is simply utterly and completely at odds with Christianity. So the question, Would I obey it, is too irrelevant even to contemplate it.
It is unfortunately true however that some religions, one in particular, does command its followers to murder others, and because they think they are obeying God they do it. Very sad indeed, and those who are members of that religion are victims that need to be set free from it. So you have to take into account what is actually taught, and murder and any other sin cannot be commanded by the true God. I understand this is hard for unbelievers to digest, but Christianity was a huge influence in the world for GOOD and against every kind of harm to anyone. If I had a fortune to spend I'd spend it on teaching people these truths that have been lost in the west. There is nothing sadder to me than this debate that goes on here with people who have NO idea whatever of the glorious legacy they have lost and who say such utterly false things against the true God. One of the ways this craziness gets promoted is through the complete misunderstanding of the Old Testament which is a revelation of God's judgments in this world through His chosen nation which no longer exists as it did then. Getting all this across here has proved to be impossible but I guess I can keep saying it into the wind. The Amalekites had committed a terrible sin against God's people and deserved punishment. The Canaanites had been slated for judgment for hundreds of years before God sent the Israelites to be His arm of judgment against them. The Midianite women had seduced Israelite men into sexual immorality and idolatry at the recommendation of their prophet Balaam, and that is why those who had sexual experience were not to be kept alive because they would have continued corrupting the men of Israel. You really have to understand the context, though I get it that since you've got a modern mindset you aren't going to care anyway. Justice, you know, justice, judgment. Amazing how some people are unable to distinguish justice from murder these days. Really jaw- Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No he isn't.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
They were punished for lying about it. These stories are made up anyway, but could you quote the Bible passage where Ananias and Sapphira tell this lie? They were in the wrong for keeping back part of the money too because everyone else was giving all of theirs but as Peter says in Acts 5:4 they had the right to the land and the money and had no need to lie about their choice to keep back part, they lied to make themselves look good.
Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. 7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. 9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. 11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
So if God commanded you to would you kill those who have committed a terrible sin against God’s people and who deserve punishment would you do it? You mean if I thought I heard God say that to me or something like that? I would not obey it because I would know it wasn't God talking. Such a message is totally inconsistent with the New Testament, which i've already said.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Peter was very clear that they had the right to the land and its money so they had every right to do with it whatever they wanted to do and that being the case they could not be punished for that. You do have to read in context.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The context is clear that they were punished for lying AND holding back. The phrase added by AND is an important part of the context that you're ignoring. It is clear from the fact that they had a right to their land to dispose of it however they wished that they couldn't be punished for holding back part of it, that makes no sense at all. They were in the wrong because everybody else was giving all their possessions but that isn't a punishable wrong, especially not punishable by the death penalty.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I am delighted to hear it. I think it’s a good thing you would ignore such commands. It makes me SO sad that you wouldn't already have known that and even go on to the next question, that people these days know so little about their Christian heritage. Nothing really.
But what if those biblical folk who were commanded to kill the Amalekites had drawn the same conclusion and ignored God’s command? Would they have been justified in their refusal? I'd have to study it all more closely but I believe they got their commands from their military leaders, who got them from Moses or Joshua if they were commands from God. I don't think you disobey military commands with impunity. They might have been killed for desertion or something like that. Nevertheless there were many times when the Israelites disobeyed the general command to wipe out all the idolatrous nations and they suffered for it because those nations seduced them into idolatry for which they were eventually punished themselves. In any case no single Israelite could have drawn the same conclusion I would draw since mine is drawn on the fact that I'm in the New Testament dispensation and know that God wants me to suffer rather than harm anyone else. They were commanded to destroy their enemies. Whole different frame of reference. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
In the actual text Peter makes it clear that it was WRONG of them to hold back part of the money and that they had no excuse for ho,ding back part of them money. And why should they not be punished for doing wrong ? Because it isn't a punishable wrong. And since they had a right to dispose of their possessions as they pleased, which Peter very very clearly spells out, there is no wrong at all in holding back some of it. Their wrong was in the context of voluntary giving of possessions which everybody did but themselves. There is nothing punishable about that, it's just a sign of their lack of complete commitment to the cause. And you certainly can't think God would take their lives for such a withholding, but lying to the Holy Spirit is a great sin.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I had already read the beginning of Act 5, and the end of Act 4 as well, when I asked you to quote the Bible passage where Ananias and Sapphira tell this lie. You still haven't done it, since Ananias never said a word before he "gave up the ghost." Only Sapphira lied. But the narrator, the writer of the Book of Acts, Luke, and Peter, both say he'd lied, so just because Ananias himself says nothing at that point we know he lied. Unless you are calling Luke and Peter liars instead. Besides which, he DID "give up the ghost" as punishment for lying, and if he hadn't lied he wouldn't have lost his life for it.
I'm in effect making the same point as Ringo - people see what they want in the Bible, whether it is there or not. Certainly seems to me that unbelievers do that a lot, but I can't see any motive whatever for a believer to "want" to see anything in particular in the Bible since the Bible is our source of knowledge of God. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That's ridiculous, ringo. Peter would not have talked about how he had complete control over his land, meaning the right to dispose of it at will, if he was doing anything wrong with respect to that fact. I suppose you'll just go on and on with the ridiculous argument and refuse to get the point though.
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