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Author Topic:   Recommend ID/Creationism literature?
nessie235
Junior Member (Idle past 2486 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 09-14-2010


Message 1 of 15 (581184)
09-14-2010 10:25 AM


Creationists, what three books would you recommend to me, an evolutionist, that would best help me understand your side of the debate? Please let me know why you chose those books, too.
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 Message 3 by slevesque, posted 09-14-2010 4:20 PM nessie235 has not yet responded

    
Adminnemooseus
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Message 2 of 15 (581198)
09-14-2010 12:36 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Recommend ID/Creationism literature? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
slevesque
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 3 of 15 (581219)
09-14-2010 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nessie235
09-14-2010 10:25 AM


What is your level of knowledge on the subject ? What is your field of interest ? (genetics, geology, cosmology, etc. ?)
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 Message 1 by nessie235, posted 09-14-2010 10:25 AM nessie235 has not yet responded

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 Message 4 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-14-2010 5:33 PM slevesque has responded

  
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15960
Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 4 of 15 (581233)
09-14-2010 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by slevesque
09-14-2010 4:20 PM


What is your level of knowledge on the subject ? What is your field of interest ? (genetics, geology, cosmology, etc. ?)

How about "fiat creation of species"? Isn't that what we're arguing about?

I'm really disappointed. When I saw that you'd posted on this thread, I resolved that whatever book you recommended, I'd order it from my local library and read it, and urge "nessie235" to do the same.

What is the best book? The first book I read about creationism was by one Dr Jolly F. Griggs, and it was hilarious. But I am willing to believe that you guys have something better up your sleeve. Please produce it.


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 Message 5 by slevesque, posted 09-15-2010 12:59 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 5 of 15 (581314)
09-15-2010 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dr Adequate
09-14-2010 5:33 PM


How about "fiat creation of species"? Isn't that what we're arguing about?

You know what I meant. Creationist litterature covers all the different areas of science. The Bible makes a wide variety of claims, which includes the creation of the different kinds, but not solely that. Not only that. but he also asked for ID books as well, which is pretty lagr on it's own.

And finally, there are books about the history of creationism in recent times.

I'm really disappointed. When I saw that you'd posted on this thread, I resolved that whatever book you recommended, I'd order it from my local library and read it, and urge "nessie235" to do the same.

What is the best book? The first book I read about creationism was by one Dr Jolly F. Griggs, and it was hilarious. But I am willing to believe that you guys have something better up your sleeve. Please produce it.

Reall didn't mean to 'dissapoint' you

I have to say that I haven't read a whole lot of creationist books. I usually read the daily articles on creation.com and also reading the Journal of Creation articles which keeps me up to date about what's going on. I have a couple of books I plan on buying but don't have the time to read them usually.

Still, here are a couple I would recommend:

- Genetic Entropy by Dr. John C. Sanford. Maybe the 'must buy' not only because of the excellent credentials of the author, but that I think he makes a very compelling point. It is also insightful from a person who went from atheist, to theistic evolutionnist all the way to creationist in the middle of a great scientific career. However, this book isn't a presentation of evidence for recent creation (although I guess it could be indirectly), it is instead a refutation of Neo-Darwinian evolution as a plausible mechanism for evolution.

- Bones of Contention. I appreciated this one because it focuses strictly on anthropology for the whole book, instead of other creationists books who seem to only skim the surface of subjects before moving on. He also doesn't bother about the dates (although he doesn't accept them), and shows that the human fossil record isn't what it should be if ape-to-human evolution had happened.

Starlight, Time and the New physics: Written by Dr. John Hartnett. A good read even though it's not long, particularly because it explains Mosh Carmeli's cosmological relativity. Which does seem to be a legitimate hypothesis from my layman perspective, although I plan to look into all this in more depth when I acquire the knowledge to judge it more critically at university.

Flood by Design - Was a good read for a layman in geology like me. This could be worth looking into strictly because it explains the current creationist model of the flood, which could help in understanding it rather then making strawmans. (I'm talking in general).Has some intriguing arguments and example, but nothing too in depth.

Darwin's Black Box - I guess this should be a read for the sole purpose that it is such a talked about argument, and I sometimes wonder how many people think critic it and think they got it all figured out without ever having read it. I guess ''On the edge of evolution'' would be a good pickup as well (I haven't read it) because from the ouset it seems that it complements irreducible complexity into a more watertight argument.

THese are all books I have read, the following are some that I plan on buying:

In the beginning was information - Once again, I wonder how many people critique it without having ever read it. I haven't read it, this is in part why I have never engaged into a discussion around here about ''how do you define information'', not knowing enough on the subject. I would 'guess' this book would have creationist answer. It is available online on the AiG site if I remember correctly.

The Design Inference - By William Dembski. I waiting to have more knowledge of statistics before buying this one, but it is one of the main books of the intelligent design movement that I know of.

The Creation-Evolution Debate: Historical Perspectives by Edward J. Larson Read a recent review of this book on creation.com and think I'll buy it. Seems like an unbiased view of the history of the creation/evolution debate from three lectures given by an atheist.

The RATE research volumes would be a most buy for anyone wanting to critic their research, although it's expensive. But I think I saw the chapter free on creation.com or AiG or ICR (can't remember which) although I can't seem to find them now.

That's all I got right now. Satisfied now ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-14-2010 5:33 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-15-2010 1:49 AM slevesque has responded

  
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15960
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 6 of 15 (581319)
09-15-2010 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by slevesque
09-15-2010 12:59 AM


That's all I got right now. Satisfied now ?

Much happier, yes. Thank you.

Would you be so kind as to recommend one of them to begin with?

There is one problem I should bring up. You mention a book called "Bones Of Contention". Now the thing is that everyone who has ever written a book about any controversy in the fossil record thought that it would be ever so clever to call it "Bones Of Contention". There must be about a hundred books called that. I myself have read a book called "Bones Of Contention", but I bet it's not the one you mean to recommend. You're going to have to name the author.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by slevesque, posted 09-15-2010 12:59 AM slevesque has responded

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 Message 9 by slevesque, posted 09-15-2010 10:49 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
PaulK
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Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 7 of 15 (581322)
09-15-2010 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Adequate
09-15-2010 1:49 AM


I expect he means the Bones of Contention written by Marvin Lubenow (review)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-15-2010 1:49 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
nessie235
Junior Member (Idle past 2486 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 09-14-2010


Message 8 of 15 (581332)
09-15-2010 4:18 AM


quote:
What is your level of knowledge on the subject ? What is your field of interest ? (genetics, geology, cosmology, etc. ?)

I read a couple of books 8 or 9 years ago in high school when I first became a creationist. I only changed my mind within the last year and I have been more interested in the debate lately. I am familiar with most of the basic arguments (absence of "intermediates" in the fossil record, irreducible complexity, unreliability of carbon dating, etc.) I want to make sure I have a complete picture of what creationists generally maintain instead of learning about just one area.

slevesque, thank you for your list. Bones of Contention is one of the books I originally read. It looks like Genetic Entropy would be a good place to start if I can find a copy.


    
slevesque
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 9 of 15 (581375)
09-15-2010 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Adequate
09-15-2010 1:49 AM


Bones of Contention is the Lubenow book yeah.

If there was one book, I guess it would be genetic entropy. For the reasons I said above: the author has great credentials, the topic is narrow and comprehensible for a layman yet compelling for a professionnal.

I would also add that Sanford has been an active creationist lately (developping the Mendel's accountant program, etc.) So you'll see his argumentation more often in the future.


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 Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-15-2010 1:49 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 1718 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 10 of 15 (638709)
10-25-2011 6:06 AM


Darwin on Trial - Phillip E Johnson
Wedge of Truth - Phillip E Johnson
Reason in the Balance - Phillip E Johnson

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-25-2011 6:24 AM Portillo has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15960
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 11 of 15 (638710)
10-25-2011 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Portillo
10-25-2011 6:06 AM


Darwin on Trial - Phillip E Johnson
Wedge of Truth - Phillip E Johnson
Reason in the Balance - Phillip E Johnson

All written by ... a lawyer?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Portillo, posted 10-25-2011 6:06 AM Portillo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Portillo, posted 10-25-2011 6:27 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 1718 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 12 of 15 (638711)
10-25-2011 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dr Adequate
10-25-2011 6:24 AM


A great lawyer and an expert at logic. Johnson asks the question, what is actually known from the scientific evidence as opposed to materialist philosophy.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-25-2011 6:24 AM Dr Adequate has responded

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 Message 13 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-25-2011 6:40 AM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 14 by Theodoric, posted 10-25-2011 11:04 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15960
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 13 of 15 (638712)
10-25-2011 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Portillo
10-25-2011 6:27 AM


A great lawyer ...

I've never heard anyone claim that of him before. Perhaps you could tell me something about his cases?

... and an expert at logic.

Which you discovered how?

I have studied logic and taught it. He is a lawyer.

Johnson asks the question, what is actually known from the scientific evidence as opposed to materialist philosophy.

I'm familiar with the tendency of his lies and innuendo. His blather about "materialism" is a blatant lawyer tactic --- when all the expert witnesses are against you, allege bias. But the fact is that he is opposed by 99% of the scientists who do not adhere to a "materialist philosophy". As for the scientific evidence, he obviously does not know as much about it as all the theist biologists who think that he's wrong, what with him being ... a lawyer.

Don't get me wrong, he's entitled to his opinions, but why aren't you recommending me books written by a biologist?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
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Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
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Message 14 of 15 (638731)
10-25-2011 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Portillo
10-25-2011 6:27 AM


Phillip E. Johnson? Really?
This pretty much disqualifies him and anything he has to say.

quote:
and is credited with establishing the wedge strategy,

Source

And please like Dr.A says please provide us some history about his cases to show what a great lawyer he is.

Please read the whole wiki article.
Seems like he is a liar, crybaby and an AIDS denier. What a winner.

Allegations of intellectual dishonesty
Disputes with Nancey Murphy
AIDS denialism

You actually respect this guy?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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NoNukes
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Posts: 9993
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
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(1)
Message 15 of 15 (638796)
10-25-2011 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Theodoric
10-25-2011 11:04 AM


Re: Phillip E. Johnson? Really?
Why not Phillip E. Johnson?

To be blunt, most of us are well aware that ID is complete and utter crap. There really isn't much behind it other than weak arguments intended to sneak creationism into K-12 public schools. And is anyone closer to the center of that mess than Johnson?

You're not in any danger of being indoctrinated, and the English major turned lawyer is unlikely to present any reasoning that is over the typical science follower's head. So my guess is that a perusal of Johnson's work ought to yield a pretty insightful look into the sham that is ID.

It can't be any worse than listening to the your favorite proponent on EvC, who typically knows next to nothing about the subject.

Seems like he is a liar, crybaby and an AIDS denier. What a winner.

Sounds like excellent credentials to me.


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 Message 14 by Theodoric, posted 10-25-2011 11:04 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
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