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Author Topic:   Where did all this water come from?
Purpledbear
Member (Idle past 2723 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 1 of 21 (513675)
07-01-2009 1:20 AM


If god did not open the sky and allow it to enter where did all this fricken water come from? There are 326 million trillion gallons. That I assume is a lot of big gulps.

I read

quote:
2,500 to 3,300 feet (about 750 to 1,000 meters) in diameter, carried about 3.6 million tons (3.3 billion kilograms) of water within its bulk

That is a big ass comet. That is 76ish school buses long:

quote:
I drive a 15 ton, 50 ft. vehicle that holds about 72 passengers- a big yellow school
according to this gal on yahoo answers I just found.

3.6 million tons is a crap load of water from this insanely huge comet. I wonder how many olympic swimming pools that is.

No matter how massive and how wet it is still a far cry from 326 million trillion gallons. I do not know how to work out the math but 1 gallon of water =.004165 tons. So it takes a crap load of insanely massive comets right?

I also heard volcanoes. Also it just some how seeped through the core or something. Somehow it just formed itself.

If god did it why so much? Doesn't he know we do not live in water?


Replies to this message:
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 Message 4 by Rahvin, posted 07-01-2009 3:34 AM Purpledbear has responded
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 21 (513679)
07-01-2009 1:44 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1242 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 3 of 21 (513680)
07-01-2009 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Purpledbear
07-01-2009 1:20 AM


Urg... could you rephrase the question? Are you asking where all the water of the oceans came from or are you asking about the flud?
This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1138 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 4 of 21 (513683)
07-01-2009 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Purpledbear
07-01-2009 1:20 AM


If god did not open the sky and allow it to enter where did all this fricken water come from? There are 326 million trillion gallons. That I assume is a lot of big gulps.

Water is the second most common molecule in the universe. It's all over the place. It's so common that it's basically impossible to avoid - wherever there is a concentration of matter, water will almost always be there in some amount. The moon has water ice. Mars used to be wet, and now still has water vapor and ice at the very least. Europa is a moon that's basically made entirely of water - and there are others like it right here in our solar system.

The outer solar system is riddled with comets. Giant balls of dirt and ice in the Kuiper belt - and as we know, some of them are on orbits visible from Earth. Not too many years ago we witnessed, directly, comet Shoemaker-Levy become trapped by Jupiter's gravity well and fall into the gas giant. Imagine how many more comet impacts must have happened all over the solar system in the billions of years it's been around, compared to the scant few hundreds of years that we've been watching the sky with telescopes!

Why would you ever be surprised that Earth has water?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16052
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 5 of 21 (513710)
07-01-2009 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Purpledbear
07-01-2009 1:20 AM


If god did it why so much? Doesn't he know we do not live in water?

We don't, but fish do, and obviously God prefers fish. That's why he made so many of them.


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 Message 1 by Purpledbear, posted 07-01-2009 1:20 AM Purpledbear has not yet responded

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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5352
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 6 of 21 (513715)
07-01-2009 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Adequate
07-01-2009 7:11 AM


And He likes squid even better than he likes fish.

To the OP: compare the amount of water on our planet to the amount of, say, iron in the core or olivine in the mantle. It's a pretty piddly amount, really - and we notice the water because it cooked out of the hot rock below and then condensed up here on the crust.


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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2667 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 7 of 21 (513731)
07-01-2009 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Purpledbear
07-01-2009 1:20 AM


One of the Nice Things About Water…
…is that 1000kg has a volume of 1m3. So your 3.3 Gkg comet load of water has a volume of 3.3 milliion m3. An olyimpic size swimming pool is 50m by 25m by 2m. 3.3(106)/2.5(103)=1320.

Compared to the (326(1018) gal) 4.94(1014) olympic swimming pool's worth in the oceans it's and it's not so much.

But something might be wrong somewhere. The volume of the comet is some 110 times 1320 osp. I'd not think a comet is less then 1% water. Have I missed a few zeros somewhere? I'll have to check later. Got to go to the shops with my mum.

Edited by lyx2no, : "Submit Now" instead of "Preview"


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

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Purpledbear
Member (Idle past 2723 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 8 of 21 (513743)
07-01-2009 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Rahvin
07-01-2009 3:34 AM


Comets?
So all the water on earth came from comets? It seems slightly more reasonable than suggesting god did it. Do you suggest anything I should read rather than Wiki? Just seems like a lot of comets to me is all. So massive too. I dunno?

quote:
Why would you ever be surprised that Earth has water?

I am not surprised. I just want to know where the heck it all came from. I mean I am overwhelmed by the amount of water at theme parks(water parks). This is not a grain of sand compared to the vast amount of water on the earth. The amazing size of the comets that carried water to earth. Only 1-3 of them could have fit into one of these water parks. If something this massive crashed into the earth several hundred times wouldn't it be like 1000 nuclear bombs? I just pulled that number out of a hat.

It had to be awesome! Now I agree the fact I am unable to visualize in my mind that this is how it happened has no impact on reality. I don't think I am spinning at 1,000 mph ATM. So, is this really how it happened? Comets the length of 5-6-7-8 school buses long weighing what millions of pounds crashed into earth with the explosive force of bombs then melted?

Edited by Purpledbear, : I forgot the word of.


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Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1242 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 21 (513747)
07-01-2009 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Purpledbear
07-01-2009 11:43 AM


Re: Comets?
Purpledbear writes:

I mean I am overwhelmed by the amount of water at theme parks(water parks).


Might as well say you're overwhelmed by the amount of dirt under your feet.

Allow me to paraphrase your original question.

Where did all this dirt come from?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Purpledbear, posted 07-01-2009 11:43 AM Purpledbear has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Purpledbear, posted 07-01-2009 12:47 PM Taz has responded

  
Purpledbear
Member (Idle past 2723 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 10 of 21 (513751)
07-01-2009 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Taz
07-01-2009 12:02 PM


Re: Comets?
That is not the question. At this point in time I do not give a crap about the dirt. Possibly that will be my next question. That is pretty interesting. Allow me to paraphrase something I typed earlier:

So all the water on the earth came from hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands of comets the size of 9 school buses long weighing millions of pounds which crashed into the earth over billions of years which hit with the explosive force of nuclear weapons?

I am not being sarcastic when I say that is awesome. I am being serious again when I ask is this how we believe it happened? If so why? Is there evidence of this or is it simply the most logical conclusion one can believe rather than assuming god did it?

Also let me clearly state I am anti-theist and believe Christianity is a danger to an intelligent, progressive and forward moving society. I am 100% unwilling to debate my position in this thread. I mention this to demonstrate I am not viewing this from a Christian POV. The answer god did it to me is crap. So, I am looking for a more reasonable reason. It is a question to which I do not understand the answer. If someone can help me understand please do.

THAT said if you do believe god did it. I am open to hear your opinion too.


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Taz
Member (Idle past 1242 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 21 (513753)
07-01-2009 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Purpledbear
07-01-2009 12:47 PM


Re: Comets?
Haha, you missed the point of my question.

You asked where the water came from. Might as well ask where the dirt came from. Don't stop there. Ask where the hydrogen atom came from.

we could give conjectures to where all these things came from based on our latest scientific knowledge. But in the end, all these things are here whether we like them or not.


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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1138 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 12 of 21 (513754)
07-01-2009 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Purpledbear
07-01-2009 11:43 AM


Re: Comets?
So all the water on earth came from comets?

Not all of it necessarily, but likely most of it. Notice that the inner planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars) are rocky, while the outer solar system mostly consists of gas giants. Outside of Neptune's orbit, we have the Kuiper belt, which is a massive cloud of dwarf planets like Pluto, and lots and lots of comets. Most never wind up entering the inner solar system - but all it takes is a massive object (another comet, a large asteroid, etc) to knock a comet or three or twenty into a new trajectory that may bring them into the inner solar system.

Remember also that we're talking about billions of years, a length of time that's difficult for the human mind to really grasp. The solar system today looks much different from the solar system of a billion or two years ago - the massive bodies of Jupiter and the other gas giants do a great job of capturing any smaller stray objects. Those icy moons I spoke about were very likely Kuiper belt objects themselves, which became trapped by the gravitational pull of Jupiter or Saturn, etc, and happened to arrive in a stable orbit (this is the case with most of the moons of gas giants).

Imagine, then, if a Kuiper object the size of Europa collided with Earth.

It seems slightly more reasonable than suggesting god did it.

It's more than that: "goddidit" is not a useful explanation. It doesn't actually explain anything; it proposes no mechanism whatsoever for how the water arrived, it simply assigns responsibility to the deity of your choice. That's not scientific. Science attempts to describe the mechanisms by which the universe works, as observable by our senses. Instead of saying "magic," scientists say "we don't know - yet" and proceed to try to find an actual, plausible mechanism supported by observable evidence to explain the unknown phenomenon.

In this case, Kuiper belt objects are observably real, we have evidence that comets do impact planets, and evidence suggests that impacts were far more common in the past (geologically and atmospherically inert bodies like the the moon show us how common impacts used to be, since their craters never disappear - and even Earth bears the signs of some very large impacts despite the fact that our geological and atmospheric activity mean that any impacts we can see on Earth today are relatively young). It's a plausible mechanism supported by evidence that actually offers an explanation rather than an assignment of credit. That makes it a far more reasonable solution than "goddidit."

Do you suggest anything I should read rather than Wiki? Just seems like a lot of comets to me is all. So massive too. I dunno?

Take a look at the Wiki entry on Europa:

quote:
it is predicted that the outer crust of solid ice is approximately 10–30 km (6–19 mi) thick, including a ductile "warm ice" layer, which could mean that the liquid ocean underneath may be about 100 km (60 mi) deep.[25] This leads to a volume of Europa's oceans of 3 × 1018 m3, slightly more than two times the volume of Earth's oceans.

Compared to this moon, we don't have much water at all. "A lot of comets" is a relative judgment - "a lot" compared to what? "Massive" compared to what? Remember, Earth itself isn't all that large compared to most of the planets in the solar system, and it's absolutely tiny compared to most of the planets we've discovered in other solar systems. Our human sense of scale becomes meaningless when we talk about astronomy. This is why "it seems to me" and other subjective personal feelings are rather meaningless in science - this case is a perfect example of something that normal human experience (and thus "common sense" reactions) simply doesn't cover.

quote:
Why would you ever be surprised that Earth has water?

I am not surprised. I just want to know where the heck it all came from. I mean I am overwhelmed by the amount of water at theme parks(water parks). This is not a grain of sand compared to the vast amount of water on the earth. The amazing size of the comets that carried water to earth. Only 1-3 of them could have fit into one of these water parks. If something this massive crashed into the earth several hundred times wouldn't it be like 1000 nuclear bombs? I just pulled that number out of a hat.

If a single object with the entire mass of the oceans crashed into Earth, yes - the kinetic energy would be equivalent to (insert obscenely large number of nuclear warheads here). The same amount of energy would be released with multiple, smaller objects as well - it would just be spread out over the multiple impacts.

But the Earth has suffered such massive collisions before. The moon is thought to have been the result of a massive body impacting Earth and fragmenting the planet; gravitational accretion eventually resulted in a much changed Earth with the moon orbiting it. There was a time when the entire Earth was a molten ball of slag. Accretion and collision is how the planet formed in the first place, after all.

It had to be awesome! Now I agree the fact I am unable to visualize in my mind that this is how it happened has no impact on reality. I don't think I am spinning at 1,000 mph ATM. So, is this really how it happened? Comets the length of 5-6-7-8 school buses long weighing what millions of pounds crashed into earth with the explosive force of bombs then melted?

Rather than saying "that's how it happened," I'd rather say "that's the explanation that best fits the evidence we have currently." Remember, science doesn't tend to make claims of absolutes. Rather, we use a sliding scale of sorts where our degree of certainty in the accuracy of a given theory increases as additional evidence supports it; theories supported by lots of evidence with very accurately verified predictions are counted as extremely accurate (ie, General Relativity, the Theory of Evolution, etc), but absolute proof is the realm of mathematics.

Also, I'd lose the specifics regarding the size of the objects colliding with Earth. Yes, the current model states that Earth's water is the result of watery objects impacting the planet, but we can't say exactly how large or how many - any evidence of those sorts of specifics have long since been destroyed by ongoing geological processes. We know that there was plenty of time over the formation of the solar system for many, many impacts to have occurred, and we know that icy bodies are pretty common. That's really all we need to know.


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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5600
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 13 of 21 (513755)
07-01-2009 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Purpledbear
07-01-2009 1:20 AM


Water, water everywhere
No one can say with any certainty. Hydrogen is very prevalent though, and that's more than half the battle to make H2O.

There's several theories out there, but they usually encounter some catastrophic problem why it couldn't work and then go to the next theory and work on that one. Trial and error.

Just be happy that you have delicious, life-sustaining water at your disposal. :)


"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson
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Purpledbear
Member (Idle past 2723 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 14 of 21 (513764)
07-01-2009 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Purpledbear
07-01-2009 12:47 PM


Re: Comets?
quote:
Re: Comets?
Haha, you missed the point of my question.

You asked where the water came from. Might as well ask where the dirt came from. Don't stop there. Ask where the hydrogen atom came from.

we could give conjectures to where all these things came from based on our latest scientific knowledge. But in the end, all these things are here whether we like them or not.


Pooh on you. I am interested in the latest scientific knowledge. The route you wish to drive me would take some turns in philosophy I bet. Anyhow some have presented me with a good start for me to continue looking.


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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1138 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 15 of 21 (513765)
07-01-2009 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Purpledbear
07-01-2009 1:43 PM


Re: Comets?
Pooh on you. I am interested in the latest scientific knowledge. The route you wish to drive me would take some turns in philosophy I bet. Anyhow some have presented me with a good start for me to continue looking.

I think you're misunderstanding taz. he's not dismissing your question - he's providing an answer. It's the same answer I gave, simply much less verbose.

Water on Earth arrived the same way the rest of the matter on Earth arrived: the process of collision and accretion of matter left over in a stellar nebula after the star forms. The matter coalesces towards areas of increased density, and slowly those objects in stable orbits "clean up" everything else with their gravitational fields. Anything in an unstable orbit either impacts with another body (including the Sun itself) or flung out of the solar system.

It really is the same process.


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