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Author Topic:   Science in church?
Logic
Member (Idle past 2427 days)
Posts: 31
From: Australia
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 1 of 35 (482505)
09-16-2008 9:04 PM


It’s been a long while since I logged in to talk and or debate. I found it more interesting to just sit back in read creationist ideas rather then pointlessly debate them. Because we all know its dam near impossible to change someone’s view once there set on it.

Sorry back to the topic. I have a very simple question mainly for the creationist, others can jump on the band wagon if they like. If "science classes" have to teach religious ideas such as ID or creationism, then shouldn't churches have to whip out the grade science books and start preaching science? I say this because I have read many comments from creationist calling science a religion or atheism a religion. If this is true and you guys want to mix it up then here are your options.

1) Leave science in the science class, and Philosophy in the church / religious education classes
2) Mix science and religion in the science classes, and mix Philosophy and science in the church / religious education classes.

Option 2) seems silly to me because you would end up just confusing the students about what to believe. I think best option for all is option 1). Now some may say there’s an option 3)

3) Mix science and religion in the science classes, and make the churches happy.

Option 3) just seems unfair for the entire science community; after all we want a happy medium for both sides.

So I choose option 1), I would like to see what rest of you believe. Now I don't want to see evidence for this or that; just stick to what I've asked and tell me why.


    
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3784
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 2 of 35 (482510)
09-16-2008 9:13 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

I put this into the "Education and Creation/Evolution" forum because it seems be be a topic about where such education should happen.

Personally, I would find it interesting to pursue the theme as presented in the topic title "Science in church?". What if churches allowed and promoted the scientific explanations to be presented in their congregations?

Adminnemooseus

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Post promotion comments.


    
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 3 of 35 (482547)
09-17-2008 12:04 AM


don't some churches include science as a way of explaining God's plan?
Replies to this message:
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Logic
Member (Idle past 2427 days)
Posts: 31
From: Australia
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 4 of 35 (482556)
09-17-2008 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by obvious Child
09-17-2008 12:04 AM


That’s not what I’m getting at, I understand some may use some aspects of science to explain some aspects of there religion. But if you or anyone else has missed the point, I’m try rephrasing it. If science classes suddenly have to teach creationism, shouldn't churches / philosophy classes have to teach evolution or something similar? They are calling for a fair representation of creation in the science classes; therefore science should have fair representation in churches / philosophy classes.

So coming back which Option do you think our education systems should follow?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-17-2008 12:57 AM Logic has responded
 Message 10 by ICANT, posted 09-17-2008 1:31 AM Logic has not yet responded
 Message 13 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-17-2008 2:13 AM Logic has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11348
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 5 of 35 (482559)
09-17-2008 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Logic
09-17-2008 12:50 AM


If science classes suddenly have to teach creationism, shouldn't churches / philosophy classes have to teach evolution or something similar?

No, science classes are held to a higher standard.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Logic, posted 09-17-2008 12:50 AM Logic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Logic, posted 09-17-2008 12:59 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Logic
Member (Idle past 2427 days)
Posts: 31
From: Australia
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 6 of 35 (482560)
09-17-2008 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by New Cat's Eye
09-17-2008 12:57 AM


So im assuming you go with option 1) Leave science and religion seperate
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-17-2008 12:57 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-17-2008 1:13 AM Logic has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11348
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 7 of 35 (482564)
09-17-2008 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Logic
09-17-2008 12:59 AM


So im assuming you go with option 1) Leave science and religion seperate

Way to make an ass of yourself, as the saying goes :p

The answer is: No.

I like my religion and science blended.

Any questions?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Logic, posted 09-17-2008 12:59 AM Logic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Logic, posted 09-17-2008 1:21 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Logic
Member (Idle past 2427 days)
Posts: 31
From: Australia
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 8 of 35 (482570)
09-17-2008 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by New Cat's Eye
09-17-2008 1:13 AM


Way make an ass of myself? I asked a simple question even gave out clear points of how to answer the questions. I don't care if your religious or not, what I want to know is DO YOU WANT science class rooms to teach RELIGOUS ideas such as ID? If that is the case then shouldn't Churches teach Science ideas such as evolution? I don't care if you personally like to mix your to beliefs. I want to know yours, and others stance on the practical idea of physically mixing the classes / congregations. I’m not sure if I can make this any clearer but so far I have only obtained to vague responses dodging the topic.

If you don’t want to see science taught in church then say “Option 1”

If you want to see science taught in church and religion in science class then say “Option 2”

If you want religion only to be taught in science class rooms, but not visa-versa then say “Option 3”

Don’t dodge the topic; if you don’t want to answer then don’t reply


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-17-2008 1:13 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11348
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 9 of 35 (482576)
09-17-2008 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Logic
09-17-2008 1:21 AM



Way make an ass of myself?

Have you really not heard the phrase:

quote:
Assuming makes an ass out of you and me.
?

what I want to know is DO YOU WANT science class rooms to teach RELIGOUS ideas such as ID?

No.

If that is the case then shouldn't Churches teach Science ideas such as evolution?

Assuming that's the case then: No.... science is held to a higher standard, like I said.

If you don’t want to see science taught in church then say “Option 1”

I like science in my church.

If you want to see science taught in church and religion in science class then say “Option 2”

I don't want religion in my science classroom.

Don’t dodge the topic; if you don’t want to answer then don’t reply

I answered the topic without dodging the topic. Don't be such a wuss.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Logic, posted 09-17-2008 1:21 AM Logic has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5577
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 10 of 35 (482577)
09-17-2008 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Logic
09-17-2008 12:50 AM


Re-Creationism/evolution
Hi Logic,

Logic writes:

If science classes suddenly have to teach creationism, shouldn't churches / philosophy classes have to teach evolution or something similar?

I have no idea what your definition of creationism is, please clarify.

Creation is taught in many Churches just not your version of creation.

As I understand it creation is not taught in the science classroom. Only what happened after creation.

I do have a question, you equated creationism and evolution, does that mean creation and evolution are one and the same thing. Because it has been pounded into my mind here that the ToE has nothing to do with creation. It only has to do with how life evolved after it appeared.

As I said I am all for teaching creation in the Church. I do on a regular basis.

ABE No to ID

God Bless,

Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Logic, posted 09-17-2008 12:50 AM Logic has not yet responded

    
Logic
Member (Idle past 2427 days)
Posts: 31
From: Australia
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 11 of 35 (482582)
09-17-2008 1:45 AM


I'm not sure if my posts have been that hard to read but in my mind

Creationism = ID = Belief in god, that created everything. Thus we are the result of his intelligent design
Evolution = Change over time through natural mechanisms

Now I've read many threads of people saying ID(creationism) should be taught in science classes, because of the bias towards Evolution ruling the science class room is unfair towards other theories. I proposed that if Creationism should be taught in science class rooms should evolution thus be taught in churches. If not then we should leave the two seperate from eachother.

This will be my last post for the day I’ll be back tomorrow sorry

Edited by Logic, : Impossible to read sentence fixed


Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-17-2008 1:54 AM Logic has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11348
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 12 of 35 (482585)
09-17-2008 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Logic
09-17-2008 1:45 AM


Creationism = ID = Belief in god, that created everything. Thus we are the result of his intelligent design
Evolution = Change over time through natural mechanisms

And what say you of the belief that god creating species via change over time through natural mechanisms?

Now I've read many threads of people saying ID(creationism) should be taught in science classes, because of the bias towards Evolution ruling the science class room is unfair towards other theories.

Do you really believe that this "unfairness" to other theories is evidence enough of them being taught? Don't you think that positive evidence towards them should be required for science?

I proposed that if Creationism should be taught in science class rooms should evolution thus be taught in churches.

Evolution should be taught in churches. Controversly, creationism should not be taught in science classrooms because science is held to a higher standard, like I said.

I proposed that if Creationism should be taught in science class rooms should evolution thus be taught in churches.

The churhces are not held to the same standard as science. We have this little thing called "faith" that science doesn't have. So, no, they should not be held to the same standar.

You have yet to reply to that argument.

This will be my last post for the day I’ll be back tomorrow sorry

I hope you had a good night.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Logic, posted 09-17-2008 1:45 AM Logic has responded

Replies to this message:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3501
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 13 of 35 (482591)
09-17-2008 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Logic
09-17-2008 12:50 AM


A more enlightened religion?
If science classes suddenly have to teach creationism, shouldn't churches / philosophy classes have to teach evolution or something similar?

In the U.S. it's unconstitutional to force (or otherwise bring) creationism into publicly financed schools. Likewise, science can not be forced into the church, although the church could voluntarily bring it in. Any non-publicly funded school can mix religion and science if they wish.

Regardless of the above considerations, what advantage would there be to bring religion (creationism) into the science classroom? None that I can see. It might be possible to mix science and religion in some sort of (constitutional) comparative religions class.

What advantage would there be to bring science into the church? Well, if the church isn't afraid of how worldly reality might clash with their religious dogma, it might be good for the congregation to have better knowledge of worldly scientific reality. Especially for those churches that don't have a reality/dogma conflict, it might be a good thing to learn about how science and others religious dogmas conflict.

I think that it would be good for the non-extreme religions to have a greater awareness of worldly conflicts with extremist religion dogma and how it might/is influencing their community/country/world.

Moose

ps: Back somewhere in the late 70's or early 80's a local (Christian) geologist was doing a tour of area churches giving a talk on evolution. This included during the Sunday service at the Lutheran church I was then attending. As I recall, there was no obvious reaction from anyone in the congregation. Probably it would have been better if done after the service rather that within the service. Then maybe some sort of discussion might have happened.

Edited by Minnemooseus, : "I" to "It".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Logic, posted 09-17-2008 12:50 AM Logic has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-17-2008 2:23 AM Minnemooseus has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11348
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 14 of 35 (482594)
09-17-2008 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Minnemooseus
09-17-2008 2:13 AM


Re: A more enlightened religion?
Regardless of the above considerations, what advantage would there be to bring religion (creationism) into the science classroom?

The advantage would be finding The TruthTM.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-17-2008 2:13 AM Minnemooseus has responded

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3501
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 15 of 35 (482610)
09-17-2008 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by New Cat's Eye
09-17-2008 2:23 AM


Re: A more enlightened religion?
Regardless of the above considerations, what advantage would there be to bring religion (creationism) into the science classroom?

The advantage would be finding The TruthTM.

The advantage would be that there would be another lawsuit and court case that creationism would loose. This would shine further light on creationisms gross weaknesses in regards to fitting into worldly reality.

So, getting creationism into the public schools might well be the best thing that could happen, in the fight against anti-evolution.

Moose

"Even if millions of people believe in a dumb idea, it's still a dumb idea". - Unknown, but I first heard it via "Bloom County".


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 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-17-2008 2:23 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
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