Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8752 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-30-2017 7:08 AM
127 online now:
CRR, PaulK, RAZD (3 members, 124 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: DeliverUsFromEvolution
Post Volume:
Total: 809,272 Year: 13,878/21,208 Month: 3,360/3,605 Week: 146/556 Day: 8/89 Hour: 1/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23456
...
28NextFF
Author Topic:   Transition from chemistry to biology
sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 1 of 415 (76515)
01-04-2004 5:19 PM


I would like to start a thread concerning the issue raised by creationists concerning the structure of abiogenesis. I am certain that we are all aware that all biological structures are composed of chemical elements that follow rules of physics that we can give a fair bit of evidence to back up. My question is this. Why is it not within the realm of possibilty that chemical elements in proper combinations and enviroment can give rise to living organisms without the need for suoernatural intervention?
Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by M82A1, posted 01-05-2004 9:33 PM sidelined has responded
 Message 36 by Brad McFall, posted 01-14-2004 3:29 PM sidelined has not yet responded
 Message 146 by traste, posted 02-13-2009 9:59 PM sidelined has not yet responded
 Message 251 by Peg, posted 03-24-2009 12:07 AM sidelined has not yet responded

M82A1
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 415 (76737)
01-05-2004 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
01-04-2004 5:19 PM


I don't want to sound like an idiot, but what is Abiogenesis?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 01-04-2004 5:19 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Asgara, posted 01-05-2004 9:36 PM M82A1 has not yet responded
 Message 4 by sidelined, posted 01-05-2004 9:39 PM M82A1 has not yet responded
 Message 8 by NosyNed, posted 01-05-2004 9:58 PM M82A1 has not yet responded

Asgara
Member
Posts: 1780
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 3 of 415 (76738)
01-05-2004 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by M82A1
01-05-2004 9:33 PM


the development of living organisms from non-living matter.


Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by M82A1, posted 01-05-2004 9:33 PM M82A1 has not yet responded

  
sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 4 of 415 (76739)
01-05-2004 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by M82A1
01-05-2004 9:33 PM


Abiogenesis is the generation of living matter from non living matter.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by M82A1, posted 01-05-2004 9:33 PM M82A1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by sidelined, posted 01-05-2004 9:41 PM sidelined has not yet responded
 Message 10 by DNAunion, posted 01-09-2004 7:39 PM sidelined has not yet responded

sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 5 of 415 (76740)
01-05-2004 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by sidelined
01-05-2004 9:39 PM


damn beat me to the definition. Congrats Asgara
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by sidelined, posted 01-05-2004 9:39 PM sidelined has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Asgara, posted 01-05-2004 9:42 PM sidelined has responded

Asgara
Member
Posts: 1780
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 6 of 415 (76742)
01-05-2004 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by sidelined
01-05-2004 9:41 PM


bows in the general direction of Alberta


Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by sidelined, posted 01-05-2004 9:41 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by sidelined, posted 01-05-2004 9:44 PM Asgara has not yet responded

  
sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 7 of 415 (76743)
01-05-2004 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Asgara
01-05-2004 9:42 PM


Bows deeply in the direction of Wisconsin hears loud crack and falls to floor writhing in agony.

[This message has been edited by sidelined, 01-05-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Asgara, posted 01-05-2004 9:42 PM Asgara has not yet responded

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8776
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 8 of 415 (76746)
01-05-2004 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by M82A1
01-05-2004 9:33 PM


A bio genesis
Here's my translation:
A - without (just like Athiest is without theism)
bio life
genesis beginning/start/creation

It is a beginning without life (from non life to life)


Common sense isn't
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by M82A1, posted 01-05-2004 9:33 PM M82A1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by traste, posted 02-15-2009 9:12 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

M82A1
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 415 (76749)
01-05-2004 10:17 PM


Thanks guys. Now I don't feel so, left-out-of-the-ring. lol.
DNAunion
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 415 (77433)
01-09-2004 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by sidelined
01-05-2004 9:39 PM


Wait a tick. The definition you guys are giving for abiogenesis also fits spontaneous generation, and didn't "you guys" give some "Creationist" a verbal pummeling a week or so ago for confusing the two?

[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 01-09-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by sidelined, posted 01-05-2004 9:39 PM sidelined has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by crashfrog, posted 01-09-2004 7:46 PM DNAunion has not yet responded
 Message 12 by Chiroptera, posted 01-09-2004 7:49 PM DNAunion has responded
 Message 13 by Loudmouth, posted 01-09-2004 7:55 PM DNAunion has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 415 (77434)
01-09-2004 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by DNAunion
01-09-2004 7:39 PM


The definition you guys are giving for abiogenesis also fits spontaneous generation, and didn't "you guys" give some "Creationist" a verbal pummeling a week or so ago for confusing the two?

I seem to recall that "spontaneous generation" was the term used for the position that organisms regularly arose from non-living matter - maggots arising from rotting meat, etc. The pummelling was for the person claiming that Pasteur's disproving of spontaneous generation applied to abiogenesis, too.

And wasn't it you that was so adamant that scientific terms be taken in the context in which they were coined?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by DNAunion, posted 01-09-2004 7:39 PM DNAunion has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by traste, posted 02-15-2009 8:53 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6325
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 12 of 415 (77437)
01-09-2004 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by DNAunion
01-09-2004 7:39 PM


No, spontaneous generation is when fully formed organisms, usually already well-known species, are produced directly from rotting matter or from non-living matter - maggots from rotting meat, mice from decaying straw, and so forth.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by DNAunion, posted 01-09-2004 7:39 PM DNAunion has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by DNAunion, posted 01-09-2004 8:01 PM Chiroptera has responded

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 415 (77439)
01-09-2004 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by DNAunion
01-09-2004 7:39 PM


quote:
Wait a tick. The definition you guys are giving for abiogenesis also fits spontaneous generation, and didn't "you guys" give some "Creationist" a verbal pummeling a week or so ago for confusing the two?

If Pasteur had created pre-biotic earth conditions and let it go for 1 billion years, they might be able to compare the two. However, he did nothing close to that. Instead he found the source of food spoilage, which was good in its own right.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by DNAunion, posted 01-09-2004 7:39 PM DNAunion has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by traste, posted 02-16-2009 12:20 AM Loudmouth has not yet responded

DNAunion
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 415 (77441)
01-09-2004 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Chiroptera
01-09-2004 7:49 PM


quote:
No, spontaneous generation is when fully formed organisms, usually already well-known species, are produced directly from rotting matter or from non-living matter - maggots from rotting meat, mice from decaying straw, and so forth.

Spontaneous generation applied to single-celled organisms too, such as bacteria. In fact, that's what Pasteur helped refute...remember? And you include "from non-living matter" in your explanation (which is correct).

So according to spontaneous generation, it was thought that the simplest living matter known could arise from non-living matter. That description of spontaneous generation fits the broad definition offered for abiogensis given in this thread” “Abiogenesis is the generation of living matter from non living matter.”, “It is a beginning without life (from non life to life)”; “the development of living organisms from non-living matter.”

A good definition of abiogenesis should be given: one that clearly distinguishes it from spontaneous generation.

[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 01-09-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Chiroptera, posted 01-09-2004 7:49 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Chiroptera, posted 01-09-2004 8:05 PM DNAunion has responded
 Message 16 by Loudmouth, posted 01-09-2004 8:10 PM DNAunion has responded

Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6325
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 15 of 415 (77442)
01-09-2004 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by DNAunion
01-09-2004 8:01 PM


Bacteria are well developed organisms. They are not necessarily the simplest life possible.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by DNAunion, posted 01-09-2004 8:01 PM DNAunion has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by DNAunion, posted 01-09-2004 8:13 PM Chiroptera has responded
 Message 44 by SUnderwood, posted 05-28-2004 2:13 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

1
23456
...
28NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017