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Author Topic:   Gay marriage and the law
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 25 of 206 (449310)
01-17-2008 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by New Cat's Eye
01-17-2008 4:52 PM


The laws doesn't prevent me, a man, from going on maternity leave, I'm just not capable of doing it. Does that mean that men are being prejudiced against?
Actually, you can go on "maternity" leave. The Family Medical and Leave Act (http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/fmla) took care of that back in 1993.
And, yes. Before the FMLA was passed, men were being discriminated against.

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 27 of 206 (449314)
01-17-2008 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by teen4christ
01-17-2008 4:25 PM


I'm not sure I agree with this. Marriage has always been a secular institution. What you are suggesting is, I believe, little better than when the southern states proposed for the states to get out of the school bussiness and privatize education to keep segregation. I'm having a hard time believing that separate could ever be equal.
Teen, you need to broaden your POV.
Marriage is a cross-cultural phenomenon with a very long history.
And marriage has not "always" been secular.
And marriage has not "always" been between men and women.
For example, not every society "sees" 2 genders. India, Thailand, Polynesia, Indonesia, some Native Americans, the Balkans, the Phillipines, Ethiopia, Kenya, and the Congo are just a few who have a "third sex" -- either males who are considered female or females who are considered male.
For more info, wiki has a nice summary:
Third gender - Wikipedia
wiki writes:
In 2004, the American Anthropological Association released this statement:[28]
The results of more than a century of anthropological research on households, kinship relationships, and families, across cultures and through time, provide no support whatsoever for the view that either civilization or viable social orders depend upon marriage as an exclusively heterosexual institution. Rather, anthropological research supports the conclusion that a vast array of family types, including families built upon same-sex partnerships, can contribute to stable and humane societies.
Furthermore ...
The participants in a marriage usually seek social recognition for their relationship, and many societies require official approval of a religious or civil body.
In the early modern era, John Calvin (1509 - 1564) and his Protestant colleagues reformulated Christian marriage through enactment of The Marriage Ordinance of Geneva, which imposes "The dual requirements of state registration and church consecration to constitute marriage."
Marriage - Wikipedia
In Europe, it has traditionally been the churches' office to make marriages official by registering them. Hence, it was a significant step towards a clear separation of church and state and also an intended and sufficient weakening of the Christian churches' role in Germany, when Chancellor Otto von Bismarck introduced the Zivilehe (civil marriage) in 1875. This law made the declaration of the marriage before an official clerk of the civil administration (both spouses affirming their will to marry) the procedure to make a marriage legally valid and effective, and reduced the clerical marriage to an optional private ceremony.
Ibid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by teen4christ, posted 01-17-2008 4:25 PM teen4christ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by teen4christ, posted 01-18-2008 12:06 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 35 of 206 (449391)
01-17-2008 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Rahvin
01-17-2008 7:37 PM


Re: Society vs. the Individual
Immediately back up that statement or retract.
Second.
Chapter and verse, please. Here is a site that has links to all 50 states' statutes.
http://www.prairienet.org/~scruffy/f.htm
Here is a site for federal statutes.
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/uscode/index.html
Put up or shut up, Juggs.

This message is a reply to:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 37 of 206 (449397)
01-17-2008 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
01-17-2008 8:14 PM


Anybody can enter the contract of marriage. "Gay people" is not some group that is discriminated from entering the contract. The contract, however, must be between a man and a women. Its not discriminatory.
Nope. Sorry, CS. Your ahistorical notions of what constitutes "marriage" are way off base.
Please read Message 27.
Marriage has been defined in a myriad of ways -- including "third genders", polygamy, polyandry, etc.
What anthropologists have learned is that from a global, cross-cultural perspective, “marriage” is in the first place extremely difficult, some would say impossible, to define. One anthropologist, Edmund Leach tried to define marriage in his 1955 article “Polyandry, Inheritance and the Definition of Marriage” published in MAN. Leach quickly gave up this task, concluding that no definition could cover all the varied institutions that anthropologists regularly consider as marriage.
It is true that virtually every society in the world has an institution that is very tempting to label as “marriage,” but these institutions simply do not share common characteristics.
There are cases of legitimate same-sex marriages as, for example, woman-woman marriage among the Nuer and some other African groups. Here, a barren woman divorces her husband, takes another woman as her wife, and arranges for a surrogate to impregnate this woman. Any children from this arrangement become members of the barren woman’s natal patrilineage and refer to the barren woman as their father. Among some Native American groups, males who preferred to live as women (berdache) adopted the names and clothing of women and often became wives of other men.
Unable to Find Content
If a law is written so that it excludes, by definition, a group of people, then no, not "anybody" can get married.
Finally, you have yet to satisfactorily address the "gay people are not a group of people" BS you tried to float...
"Gays" doesn't describe an actual "group of people". Remember that sexuality is a bell curve... Its not black and white.
...just doesn't cut it, CS.
Your "bell curve" crap has already been handily refuted (Message 26).
What other evidence would you like to offer that "gay people are not a group of people"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-17-2008 8:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 40 of 206 (449401)
01-17-2008 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by New Cat's Eye
01-17-2008 8:40 PM


Nice dodge, CS
But you still haven't answered my question. Why should a 20th century American definition of marriage trump all the others?
Isn't it interesting that we managed 200+ years without laws on the books defining marriage? Why do you think that is? Why do you suppose these very recent laws were written to specifically EXCLUDE a group of people?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-17-2008 8:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-17-2008 10:24 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 57 of 206 (449461)
01-17-2008 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Rahvin
01-17-2008 10:47 PM


C'mon Juggs!
He needs to show a law that supports his assertion, or admit that he was lying. Period.
Hey Juggs! You just gonna ignore me n Rahvin? Where's your support for your contention that...
The LAW says, without invoking any religious connotations, that homosexuality is an abomination.
Where's your LAW now, Juggs? Where's your LAW now?

This message is a reply to:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 59 of 206 (449465)
01-17-2008 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Hyroglyphx
01-17-2008 10:34 PM


Re: Emotive arguments
Just like it would be discriminatory for you to have barred Oscar Wilde from marrying his true love? If you're going to make an emotive argument, you have to be real careful that the tables don't turn on you.
Oooo! A pedophile! Huh.
Let's take a look at the statistics, shall we?
98% of these male perpetrators are heterosexual.
Sexual Abuse of Boys
JAMA. 280(21):1855-1862, December 2, 1998.
If you're going to make an emotive argument, better be careful the tables don't turn on ya, Juggs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-17-2008 10:34 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Rahvin, posted 01-17-2008 11:55 PM molbiogirl has replied
 Message 85 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-18-2008 2:11 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 62 of 206 (449487)
01-18-2008 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Hyroglyphx
01-18-2008 12:55 AM


Re: Hoo boy, where to start?
Subbie, that's plain English. The US government does not recognize homosexual unions as being legal.
Leetle problem, Juggs m'boy.
wiki writes:
Same-sex marriage in the U.S. state of Massachusetts began on May 17, 2004, as a result of the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts ruling in Goodridge v. Department of Public Health that it was unconstitutional under the Massachusetts constitution to allow only heterosexual couples to marry. Massachusetts became the sixth jurisdiction in the world (after the Netherlands, Belgium, Ontario, British Columbia, and Quebec) to legalize same-sex marriage. It is the first U.S. state to make same-sex marriages legal.
You thinkin' Massachusetts is floutin' federal law?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-18-2008 12:55 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-18-2008 9:44 PM molbiogirl has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 63 of 206 (449488)
01-18-2008 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Rahvin
01-17-2008 11:55 PM


Re: Emotive arguments
Yet he uses this as rationale for making gay marriage illegal.
No worries, Rahvin.
Juggs has this convenient habit of not answering when he gets his ass kicked by the facts.
You will notice that he keeps fighting (Message 61) only when he thinks he's got a snowball's chance in hell.
So don't expect a response re: abomination UNDER THE LAW or heterosexual pedophiles. Poor bastard hasn't got a leg to stand on.
And as soon as he gets a gander at Massachusetts law (Message 61), he won't answer that post either.
Poor, poor Juggs. Can't argue his positions based on the facts. Has t'run with his tail tucked between his legs the minute somebody bothers to check his "facts".
You have to pity someone like Juggs. Really, you do. Best he can hope for is t'toss a load of horseshit at someone who doesn't have the common sense to google. Anyone with an internet connection can tear him a new asshole in 3.2 seconds flat.
Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 68 of 206 (449516)
01-18-2008 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by New Cat's Eye
01-17-2008 10:24 PM


Re: Nice dodge, CS
The definition was 'understood' to be between a man and women. They failed to see the need for it to be defined. Basically, everybody knew what they were talking about.
That's weak, CS.
DOMA was backlash.
After fighting for about 10 years, the movement to open civil marriage to same-sex couples achieved its first temporary success in 1993 with the decision of the Hawaii Supreme Court that the restriction of marriage to opposite-sex couples would be unconstitutional.
It was becoming patently obvious a same sex marriage law was bound to pass in some state, some time soon.
And the bigots knew the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution was going to cause some problems. That clause says, in effect, that states must give effect to each other's public acts, records, and judicial proceedings. And among such acts would be the act of performing a marriage.
DOMA passed in 1996.
8 weeks before the presidential election.
The anti-gay marriage state laws soon followed. The first was passed in 1998. In a red state. Followed by 15 states in 2004. 14 of which were red states. Followed by 2 in 2005. Both red states. Followed by 7 in 2006. 6 of which were red states.
Of these, all but 4 were passed within 2 weeks of an election day.
Starting to get the picture, CS?
No? OK.
wiki writes:
Beginning in 2003, members of Congress have annually introduced a "court-stripping" provision that would prevent all federal courts from hearing claims challenging the constitutionality of DOMA.
Why do you suppose that is, CS? Why would anti gay marriage legislators need to prevent the issue from being heard in a federal court?
I'll tell you why, CS. Because DOMA has the effect of modifying the U.S. Constitution's Full Faith and Credit Clause, something that Congress does not have the power to do without following the proper procedures for constitutional amendment.
Virtually all constitutional scholars agree that the U.S. Supreme Court -- especially the conservative justices who like to be consistent in constitutional interpretations -- would rule that full faith and credit takes precedent.
Which is why Republicans have introduced a Federal Marriage Amendment to the Constitution each year since DOMA passed.
Starting to get the picture, CS?
No? OK. In the past, 3 constitutional amendments were proposed that would have enshrined a ban on interracial marriage in the constitution.
Starting to get the picture, CS?
No? OK. To quote the Alaskan judge who ruled in 1998 that same sex marriage is allowed under the Alaska State Constitution.
"The right to choose one’s life partner is constitutionally fundamental."
"Government intrusion into the choice of a life partner encroaches on the intimate personal decisions of the individual," the judge wrote. "The relevant question is not whether same-sex marriage is so rooted in our traditions . . . , but whether the freedom to choose one’s own life partner is so rooted in our traditions."
Quote: Cedar Lane Unitarian Universalist Church | Cedar Lane Unitarian Universalist Church
Starting to get the picture, CS?
No? OK. In 1978, the U.S. Supreme Court in Zablocki v. Redhail declared that marriage is “of fundamental importance to all individuals,” “one of the basic civil rights of man”, and “the most important relation in life”. It declared “the right to marry is part of the fundamental right to privacy” in the U.S. Constitution.
Starting to get the picture, CS?
No? OK. Guess why anti sodomy laws were ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.
The fundamental right to privacy.
"The petitioners are entitled to respect for their private lives," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote for the court's majority. "The state cannot demean their existence or control their destiny by making their private sexual conduct a crime."
Quote: Error
Starting to get the picture, CS?
No? OK. What are some other things that were "understood" about marriage for the most of history of this nation?
No miscegenation.
No divorce.
No contraception.
No legal rights (property, child custody, contractual, control of earnings, etc.) for women.
No criminal or civil liability for women.
No such thing as marital rape. Until 1978!
Age of consent: 10 years old.
Marriage as a cultural norm, as a familial relationship, and as a legal status has done nothing but change.
Civil unions just don't cut it.
A 2004 study by the Congressional Budget Office found 1,138 federal statutes are related to marriage benefits.
To name a few:
Inheritance rights
Insurance
Taxes
Child custody
Child support
Alimony
Domestic violence
Adoption
Property inheritance
Family leave
Suing for wrongful death (and any other tort or law related to spousal relationships)
Hospital visitation
Health care decision-making
Durable power of attorney
Marriage is a civil RIGHT that is afforded ALL our citizens. The right to pursue happiness, remember?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-17-2008 10:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-18-2008 1:40 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 70 of 206 (449548)
01-18-2008 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by macaroniandcheese
01-18-2008 9:51 AM


Re: Nice dodge, CS
is described in the declaration of independence, which is not a government document. it is part of our national heritage, but it was not produced by the united states of america and has no binding power over american laws. sorry.
I didn't mean to suggest that it was.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 75 of 206 (449590)
01-18-2008 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by teen4christ
01-18-2008 12:06 PM


Are you saying that at some point in the history of our nation, marriage was not a secular institution and that a simple declaration of marriage by a pastor was good enough?
You didn't even need the pastor.
Common law marriage was the rule. In 1800, the states took over.
And, when Utah was still a territory, polygamy was allowed. Hell, polygamy is still allowed, even tho it's illegal (Colorado City).

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 Message 72 by teen4christ, posted 01-18-2008 12:06 PM teen4christ has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 77 of 206 (449595)
01-18-2008 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Hyroglyphx
01-18-2008 12:11 PM


An OT foray
Watching people fumble and flounder on that position is all I see. ... They have no point of reference.
I have no problem answering this question.
Rape and incest (along with murder and a few other bad acts) are universally condemned.
There's a good reason, too -- evolution.
Homosexuality is not universally condemned. Not by a long shot.
Wanna guess why? Yup. You guessed it. Evolution.
Age of consent is trickier -- given that for a considerable chunk of time, our ancestors lived very short lives.

This message is a reply to:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 90 of 206 (449627)
01-18-2008 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by New Cat's Eye
01-18-2008 1:40 PM


Re: Nice dodge, CS
I see the picture that you are painting, but it is full of bias and conspiracy theory and does not reflect reality.
Sorry, CS, but you are wrong. Oh so very wrong.
Senator Trent Lott insisted that Congress deal with the Full Faith and Credit Clause problem.
He was afraid that, in effect, same-sex marriage would be the rule across the country -- taking away different states' prerogative to choose different beliefs as to whom they would allow to marry.
"If such a decision affected only Hawaii, we could leave it to the residents of Hawaii to either live with the consequences or exercise their political rights to change things. But a court decision would not be limited to just one State. It would raise threatening possibilities in other States because of [the Full Faith and Credit Clause]."
142 CONG. REC. S10101 (1996)
Other Republicans made similar arguments. Some expressly praised DOMA because it would reserve the right of each state to reach its own decision about the legal status of same-sex unions.
During his first run for President, George W. Bush drew a similar line. During a presidential debate in February, 2000, Bush said he would certainly campaign against gay marriage if his home state of Texas's legislature considered it, but insisted he would not tell another state what to do: "The state can do what they want to do."
But in 2003, Massachusetts legalized gay marriage. Suddenly, the Republicans changed their tune.
For example, GWB's view of state's rights does a 180.
“Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife. The amendment should fully protect marriage, while leaving the state legislatures free to make their own choices in defining legal arrangements other than marriage.”
blog.ragan.com/archives/speechblog/2006/06/gross_indecency.html
An ordinary statute, Republicans now suggest, cannot have effectively amended the Constitution. Congress does not have the power to dictate how much full faith and credit one state must give to another's acts. It can only dictate, at most, how the validity of such acts might be proven.
In 1996, when DOMA was debated, liberal law professors made this very argument -- but the Republicans didn't listen. In 2003 -- in another irony -- they use posterboards with quotes from these same commentators in support of their argument that DOMA is unconstitutional.
Thus, the FMA.
DOMA? The (sic) was in response to the 'misunderstanding' of the definition that was understood to be, yet remained undefined.
That's not backlash. That's redlining.
The vast majority of miscegenation laws were passed after the Civil War.
Signed by Bill Clinton . just sayin’
Clinton did a lot of effed up Republican-ish things.
All the more reason to not take changes to the definition of marriage too lightly.
All the more reason to make certain that all citizens have equal access to federal and state benefits.
Exactly! As marriage, as defined, is afforded to all our citizens and does not discriminate against any group, there’s no reason to change it.
Let's try an analogy, shall we?
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that this is law: only a man and a woman can have sex with each other.
Your argument would sound something like this: sex, as defined, is afforded to all our citizens and does not discriminate against any group; therefore, there’s no reason to change it.
(The majority of your post) doesn’t even address my argument and is irrelevant enough that I see no reason to address it specifically.
Eee hee hee! Oh, I hit the nail on the head.
It's no wonder you're hesitant to venture a reply!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-18-2008 1:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-18-2008 3:59 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 92 of 206 (449634)
01-18-2008 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Hyroglyphx
01-18-2008 2:11 PM


Re: Emotive arguments
Since nwr has made mincemeat of your horrific math, let's move on to this:
I could come up with all these biased articles that this or that assertion, just as you do, but really all its going to do is prove there is a bias in both directions.
Nope. I cite the scientific literature.
You link to 2 creo sites full of hogwash.
What!?!?! Are you joking? Are... you.... kidding.... me? 2% of all pedophiles are homosexual? 2 percent?
Like it or not, Juggs, thems the stats.

This message is a reply to:
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