Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,911 Year: 4,168/9,624 Month: 1,039/974 Week: 366/286 Day: 9/13 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Gay marriage and the law
nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 7 of 206 (449154)
01-16-2008 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Hyroglyphx
01-16-2008 7:19 PM


quote:
Like it or not, marriage has always been defined as a union between a man and a woman, as Nature/God has doled out.
Wives (until very recently) have "always" had to obediently submit to the sexual advances of their husbands, by the definition of marriage, thus making marital rape an extremely recent concept that people just a few decades ago would have thought unnatural and ridiculous.
Just because something has "always been" doesn't mean it should go on being so.
quote:
Anyone that makes that argument is making an incredibly specious one, IMO. What I believe is that it does is open the floodgates to more degradation.
Er, maybe you can explain how promoting marriage, which is the basic unit of society, and supporting greater numbers of consenting adults to engage in it, will lead to a less stable society.
If you want people to stop fornicating and sleeping around, thet them get married. Encourage marriage and monogomy.
quote:
Are you telling me that everyone is now born bisexual, whereas a slightly older generation was not? Absolutely not!
No. Everybody has always been born bisexual (more or less) and societal pressures to identify as and behave as exclusively heterosexual has been much greater in the past than it is today.
Is this so difficult a concept to figure out that it has never even occurred to you?
quote:
Its a perfect example of monkey see, monkey do. Today's generation is taught not only to respect other people's sexual preference, but to embrace it, and even to believe that it is innate within you (see Kinsey). And so what we have now is young people believing, because they were told so, that they are essentially bisexual. It is a complete psychological manipulation,
Er, nobody can "manipulate" another person to become sexually aroused in response to a particular gender if they don't find that gender sexually arousing in the first place. Maybe you believe you could be "tricked" or "convinced" into thinking that you want to have hot gay sex (and judging by your insistance that gay men constantly hit on you, it seems that you think about it a lot), but it simply cannot be done unless the person has that innate attraction in the first place.
Perhaps what you are noticing isn't "manipulation", but people not fearing to be honest about their sexuality. Certainly, people of older generations tend to be far more repressed, since they were socially and often literally, physically punished, often severely, for even hinting at being anything other than extremely heterosexual.
I mean, it wasn't very long ago that any openly gay people were often regularly harassed, beaten and sometimes killed just for being gay. It doesn't take much imagination to understand that since that threat of harm or death is lessened (though far from eliminated in many places) that people would feel freer to be themselves, and thus not live a lie anymore.
Gay and Bi folk have always been here, juggs, but people like you have forced them to pretend to be something they aren't just to survive.
quote:
Have you ever honestly considered the repercussions for allowing it?
Have you ever honestly considered that there are no repercussions to society other than religionists like you being put out because you can't control other people?
All of the arguments you've made in this post have been seen before, except they were made 50 years ago by people who thought that society was headed down the tubes because blacks were going to be allowed to marry whites.
Isn't it awful that many young people think that it isn't gross to be attracted to people of a different skin color, and don't give the idea of dating or marrying someone like that a second thought?
Isn't it a sign of the degradation of our society?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-16-2008 7:19 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-16-2008 10:41 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 12 of 206 (449175)
01-16-2008 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Hyroglyphx
01-16-2008 10:41 PM


Re: A refusal to deal with the central issue
quote:
Not that this has anything to do with the topic, but I would like for you to substantiate your claim, and furthermore, that no one really cared about such an issue of it were happening in abundance.
Marital rape - Wikipedia
maybe you can explain how promoting marriage, which is the basic unit of society, and supporting greater numbers of consenting adults to engage in it, will lead to a less stable society.
quote:
Because of what it leads to.
What does promoting marriage lead to that you would consider detrimental to society? the rest of your "examples" are irrelevant to marriage.
quote:
You can be monogamous without marriage.
It is an awful lot harder, though. Don't you agree?
From my own experience, I can certainly tell you that if it wasn't for the fact that I am married, I might not still be with my partner. He would probably say the same.
The institution of marriage is vital to promoting monogamy and stable families. Surely you aren't going to contest that, are you?
nobody can "manipulate" another person to become sexually aroused in response to a particular gender if they don't find that gender sexually arousing in the first place.
quote:
Your husband is a psychologist and you don't see a correlation between the power of suggestion and culture?
He's not a Social Psychologist. He's a Cognitive Psychologist and studies things like memory and face recognition.
Psychology is a big, big field, remember.
quote:
That's as basic as 1,2,3 a,b,c. Cultural influence has an enormous impact on how most people view the world. If an "authority" gives you the go-ahead, then on the basis of their position, you are more apt to listen. If you are a little teeny bopper girl infatuated by some pop idol, and she thinks homosexuality is kewls, chances are you will fall right in to line with your peers.
So, how come "culture" can't turn gay people straight?
It didn't work for Ted Haggerd, did it?
Look, Juggs, you have to stop thinking of sexuality is such either/or terms. Just about every trait in a population can be plotted on a bell curve distribution, and I don't see why sexuality should be much different. ...especially considering the very strong social bonding role sex has in our species.
Anyhow, there will be a few "very hetero" and "very homo" at either end of the curve, but most people fall somewhere in the middle. Culture will serve to influence where they feel free to publically express their sexual feelings and take mates, but this doesn't mean they don't still have the ability to respond sexually to the same gender given the right circumstances.
quote:
Seriously think about it. Look at the acceptance of homosexuality. 20 years ago, virtually the entire population was weirded out by it. That, in and of itself, you could say was culturally induced. Now we see a radical shifting in polarity. How did that happen? Cultural influence. I mean, can you honestly deny that? Call it "awareness" if you want, its all the same thing.
Same thing with interracial marriage. Most people were "wierded out" by that concept as well. So what?
it wasn't very long ago that any openly gay people were often regularly harassed, beaten and sometimes killed just for being gay.
quote:
Sometimes people are beaten and killed over a glance. Its still culturally induced.
That's not the point. The point is, terrorizing a group for certain behaviors is apt to have a chilling effect upon the behaviors. Remove the terrorist threats, and the behavior that was repressed will be more freely expressed.
quote:
You would have no way of knowing that, now would you?
Actually, if you read any history, you know that they have always been there. Repressed and persecuted, but there.
quote:
Supposing mass people have been hiding, did it ever occur to you that they do so because they know what they are doing is immoral?
They probably believed that due to the bigoted and homophobic society in which they lived.
Can you explain to me without using the a religious argument, why homosexuality is immoral?
quote:
Should adulterers carouse in the broad daylight in the hopes that society won't be so gosh darn puritanical about it?
Anyone who breaks a promise or lies to their family is doing wrong to others and as such is likely to be judged by society as having hurt others.
How is being gay similar to adultery? Please explain.
All of the arguments you've made in this post have been seen before, except they were made 50 years ago by people who thought that society was headed down the tubes because blacks were going to be allowed to marry whites.
All of the arguments you've made in this post have been seen before, except they were made 50 years ago by people who thought that society was headed down the tubes because blacks were going to be allowed to marry whites.
quote:
No they didn't,
Of course they were, juggs.
quote:
and you've neglected to answer the question. Are there any repercussions to the complete acceptance of homosexuality?
I can't think of any, other than religious and gay-hating people possibly getting so angry and fearful about their fading ability to dictate to other people what to do and how to live that they become desperate and violent.
quote:
If not, why?
Why aren't there any reprocussions? Maybe becasue it is a good thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-16-2008 10:41 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-17-2008 6:19 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 107 of 206 (449672)
01-18-2008 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Hyroglyphx
01-17-2008 6:19 PM


Re: A refusal to deal with the central issue
What does promoting marriage lead to that you would consider detrimental to society?
quote:
The societal acceptance of homosexuality which perverts the natural order of God's law.
I didn't ask about gay marriage, I asked about marriage in general.
The institution of marriage is vital to promoting monogamy and stable families. Surely you aren't going to contest that, are you?
quote:
No. And certainly stable families include mothers and fathers. Wouldn't you agree?
Not necessarily, no. Two or more caregivers make for more stable families than single parent households, but it doesn't really matter what gender those two or more responsible adults are.
Look, Juggs, you have to stop thinking of sexuality is such either/or terms. Just about every trait in a population can be plotted on a bell curve distribution, and I don't see why sexuality should be much different. ...especially considering the very strong social bonding role sex has in our species.
quote:
Then pedophilia is a trait that cannot be stopped. Its innate. If it that is so, then we can't very well ask them to stop what is normal, can we?
What does pedophilia have to do with homosexuality?
The vast majority of pedophiles are men who say they are straight, you know.
quote:
You can't act as if people are incapable of controlling themselves. By doing this, you alleviate responsibility, which in turn makes for a very unhealthy society.
Right, but I still can't figure out where you got any of this from my statement above. I was talking about the fact that most people's sexual orientation falls somewhere in the middle of a bell curve with "very hetero" on one end and "very homo" on the other, and that society influences which kinds of feelings and relationships they persue.
What does pedophelia or rape have to do with sexual orientation, for christ's sake?
quote:
Even Thomas Jefferson slept with his own slaves.
Yeah, and many powerful conservative Christian men who condemn homosexuality seem to seek out gay sex.
Funny, that.
Can you explain to me without using the a religious argument, why homosexuality is immoral?
quote:
LOL! Can you explain why anything is immoral aside from invoking God?
Sure. Is there harm?
Now, back to the question I asked.
I asked if you could explain why homosexuality is immoral without using a religious argument.
Try, really try to put aside your religious bigotry, and do your best to come up with a non-religious moral reason that homosexuality is immoral.
Who does it harm?
Why aren't there any reprocussions? Maybe because it is a good thing.
quote:
Why is it, good? What is inherently good about it?
It is simply the moral thing to do.
It contributes to the stability of society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-17-2008 6:19 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 108 of 206 (449676)
01-18-2008 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Hyroglyphx
01-17-2008 1:14 AM


quote:
Can you feel the pride?
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. Questionable content has been rendered invisible. If you must read content, use the Peek button but do not respond.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-17-2008 1:14 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 109 of 206 (449679)
01-18-2008 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by New Cat's Eye
01-17-2008 10:59 AM


quote:
Nator is arguing that sexuality follows a bell curve and is not black and white. Assuming this is true, marriage remaining between a man and a women does not deny any protection of the law to any persons.
Except, of course, it does deny exual protection for those who wish to marry someone of the same gender.
Maybe you don't get that the bell curve of sexuality I was talking about puts a lot of people in the "bi but leaning towards homo" category.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-17-2008 10:59 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 115 of 206 (449692)
01-18-2008 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Hyroglyphx
01-18-2008 12:55 AM


Re: Hoo boy, where to start?
quote:
The US government does not recognize homosexual unions as being legal.
California, D.C, Hawaii, and Washington allow same sex domestic partnerships
Connecticut, Maine, New Hampsire, New Jersey, Oregon, and Vermont allow same sex civil unions
Massachusets allows gay marriage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-18-2008 12:55 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 116 of 206 (449695)
01-18-2008 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Hyroglyphx
01-18-2008 1:37 PM


Re: A refusal to deal with the central issue
quote:
But then, you didn't honestly believe that laws are passed against things that are inherently good, did you?
Sure, it happens all the time.
Marriage between people who love each other is considered by many to be inherently good, yet our government banned mixed race marriage for a long time, and still bans homosexual marriage in most places.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-18-2008 1:37 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 154 of 206 (449996)
01-20-2008 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Hyroglyphx
01-20-2008 12:39 AM


Re: The law
quote:
The beauty of this country is that if you don't like what is going on in Connecticut, you can move to Colorado. If you don't like what is going on in Kansas, you can move to Iowa, and so on. That is pretty unique.
And if you don't like what's going on in any state in the country, or are too poor to move, you are SOL?
Yeah, pretty beautiful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2008 12:39 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 189 of 206 (450369)
01-21-2008 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Fosdick
01-21-2008 11:06 AM


Re: The law
quote:
Ah, I don't think so, not specifically, not unless the Constitution also specifically permits sodomy. How else would a gay couple consummate their "marriage"?
So, can a man without a penis never marry?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Fosdick, posted 01-21-2008 11:06 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Fosdick, posted 01-21-2008 7:01 PM nator has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024