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Author Topic:   Dangerous pro-choice extremists?
anglagard
Member (Idle past 866 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 9 of 113 (442628)
12-22-2007 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
12-21-2007 5:48 PM


Maybe Some Help?
This thread is intended to let conservatives document the liberal equivalents of conservatives who, say, threaten or murder abortion doctors, or picket women's health clinics, or beat up or kill gay people, or break bottles over their heads and send themselves death threats to make it look like they were attacked and threatened and then blame it on liberals, etc.
OK, from what I am reading I understand that the discussion should be related solely to the violence or threat of violence relative to each side of the issue concerning abortion and/or sexual orientation. Am I correct in this assumption?

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 12-21-2007 5:48 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by nator, posted 12-22-2007 7:06 AM anglagard has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 866 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 24 of 113 (442923)
12-23-2007 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by nator
12-22-2007 10:29 PM


Overgeneralization
Nator writes:
Linear AQ writes:
Please provide examples of hateful nutcases that are embraced by the conservatives. I think it would be helpful to get a handle of what you think constitutes hateful behavior in this context.
There is a range. Some are actually violent, some are simply nutcases, others espouse or excuse violence and extremism:
Randall Terry
Ann Coulter
David Duke
Bill O'Reilly
Glen Beck
Pat Robertson
Fred Phelps (conservatives oppose him now, but their outrage at his "God Hate's Fags" demonstrations only emerged after he started targetting the funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq.)
Those are just off the top of my head. I'm sure others can add to the list.
I still have a problem with using rather loose and ill-defined terms such as liberal and conservative in a manner that indicates all people in the US can be divided into one or the other. One problem I feel is the implication that each of the two and only two groups holds exactly the same mutually exclusive position on all issues.
The term conservative may be subdivided into three general groups, social, religious, and fiscal as per Conservatism - Wikipedia.
The problem I have is implying, however indirectly or unintentionally, fiscal conservatives such as JFK or Clinton are supporters of David Duke or Ann Coulter. I think the paintbrush is too wide. Just because certain simple-minded over-generalizers such as Limbaugh or O'Reilly have demonized the word liberal, playing their game by doing the exact same thing with the term conservative, IMO, is playing into their hands.
Also, I'm not so sure that most self-described conservatives are actually supporters of David Duke, former Grand Wizard of the KKK. I'm also not so sure that the majority of the residents of Utah, the most 'conservative' state in the union are all supporters of Pat Robertson, who most likely damns them to hell as Mormons.
If the term social or religious conservative was used instead of the IMO over general term 'conservative' I would feel more comfortable as I don't believe it is your intention to state there is a significant positive correlation between support for racists or religious bigots, such as David Duke, and people who desire a balanced budget.
Edited by anglagard, : clarity

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by nator, posted 12-22-2007 10:29 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by nator, posted 12-23-2007 6:34 AM anglagard has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 866 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 26 of 113 (443388)
12-24-2007 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by nator
12-23-2007 6:34 AM


Re: Overgeneralization
Nator writes:
The point is, though, that the crazy nutjobs like Ann Coulter and David Duke aren't ostracized by the more moderate segments of the overall conservative movement. They are generally tolerated by conservatives, given tacit approval from the Republican party by an absence of censure or criticism.
Ann Coulter is finally being ostracized and/or criticized by some prominent members of the Republican Party, although I agree it is a case of too little, too late.
From the NYT 3/4/07:
quote:
The article reports that three Republican candidates for the 2008 U.S. presidential election, including John McCain, Rudolph W. Giuliani and Mitt Romney, condemned author Ann Coulter for using an antigay epithet at the Conservative Political Action Conference held on March 2, 2007 in Washington. McCain said that the comments were wildly inappropriate. Giuliani said that there should be no place for name calling in political debate.
David Duke was most certainly ostracized when he tried running for President. He is rightfully an embarrassment to the right, although once again, I feel the condemnation of the former Grand Wizard was absurdly subdued prior to his presidential run.
From Congressional Quarterly Weekly Report; 2/15/92, Vol. 50 Issue 7, p369, 2/3p, 1bw:
quote:
His failure to qualify for any primary ballot before South Carolina's on March 7 reflects both his campaign's organizational problems and the organized hostility of Republican officials. The GOP has sought to distance itself from Duke by both denouncing his past ties to the Ku Klux Klan and, in some states, denying him access to the primary ballot.
There are at least tens of thousands of conservatives, at least in the South, who support him, but those are only the voters. I'd wager that there are hundreds of thousands who do if you include the people who don't vote.
As his disastrous 1992 run for the Republican nomination for President shows, he has little support outside of the Deep South.
Again, when have you ever heard the conservatives in Utah coming out against Pat Robertson?
They give their tacit approval through their failure to say he's a hateful, lying bigot.
Ever since he threw his support to Guliani, there has been a lot of talk on the blogs. Strange that Robertson can call the Mormons a non-Christian cult with barely a whimper, yet once he disses Romney, all are a flutter, as though politics trumps religion.
You can narrow this down to "social conservative" if you like, but my point remains.
All of those "fiscal conservatives" sure are quiet about the social conservative extremeists like Randal Terry and Ann Coulter as long as they bring in the votes.
If you would like quotes from Democrats or Libertarians who are fiscal conservatives condemning Ann Coulter or any of the others mentioned, I'm sure I can find plenty. After all, even Coulter has been condemned by Guliani, McCain, and Romney as I have already pointed out above.
As to your point that amongst conservatives there is not enough censure, it is too mild, or that it is late in coming, I agree. I just disagree that it has never occurred, as implied by statements such as "All of those fiscal conservatives."
I urge caution in implying that all members of a given group are exactly alike in their thinking or that they are all universally abhorrent in each of several categories. That would be to overgeneralize.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by nator, posted 12-23-2007 6:34 AM nator has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 866 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 47 of 113 (443917)
12-27-2007 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Hyroglyphx
12-27-2007 1:48 PM


Topic?
NJ, you and Brenna may want to see Message 18 from Nator, the author of the OP.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-27-2007 1:48 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-27-2007 2:39 PM anglagard has not replied
 Message 53 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-27-2007 4:23 PM anglagard has not replied

  
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