Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Emotions and Consciousness Seperate from the Brain ??
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5619 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 6 of 127 (170628)
12-21-2004 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Mission for Truth
12-17-2004 1:06 PM


Re: Hello
I think it can be safely assumed that consciousness, and emotions, can only exist, at a point of decision. It then becomes a question of who or what owns those decisions. It doesn't seem very likely to me that hormones own decisions, because they don't much go one way or another, as far as I know. I think hormones, and the other material, more cause an interference pattern in the decision-controlcenter. A decision-control center may be conceived as stacking uncertainty upon uncertainty, concentrating uncertainties. So no consciousness is not separate from the brain, but it is not an effect of the brain either, because decisions aren't effects. Decisions are what set the causes, which have the effects.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Mission for Truth, posted 12-17-2004 1:06 PM Mission for Truth has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Wounded King, posted 12-22-2004 4:09 AM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5619 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 8 of 127 (170666)
12-22-2004 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Wounded King
12-22-2004 4:09 AM


Re: Its that man again
That is manifest in all our knowledge about it. Emotions, it's love or hate, in all cases it's free, an act of will, or it is our will.
I'm very insulted by the many posts doubting free will. There is no need to destroy our common knowledge about decision because science doesn't have a handle on the subject. I suggest watching some movies, reading some novels, for knowledge about the subject.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Wounded King, posted 12-22-2004 4:09 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Wounded King, posted 12-22-2004 5:48 AM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5619 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 10 of 127 (170673)
12-22-2004 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Wounded King
12-22-2004 5:48 AM


Re: Its that man again
Sure it does answer the question.
Q Why is it safe to assume consciousness only exists in points of decision
A Because that is manifest in all our common knowledge about it.
Question answered.
I am insulted at seeing so much languishing collegestudent irresponsible meandering on the subject. Knowledge about emotions is of value, which can't be said of a certain shaky comparitive theory.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Wounded King, posted 12-22-2004 5:48 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Wounded King, posted 12-22-2004 6:51 AM Syamsu has replied
 Message 13 by lfen, posted 12-22-2004 11:37 AM Syamsu has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5619 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 12 of 127 (170699)
12-22-2004 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Wounded King
12-22-2004 6:51 AM


Re: Its that man again
It seems to be better to accept the status quo of common knowledge about decisions, in stead of throwing out our heritage in favour of some destructive philosphical meandering.
Your feeling is still a liking, and liking is a matter of choice.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Wounded King, posted 12-22-2004 6:51 AM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Parasomnium, posted 12-22-2004 1:52 PM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5619 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 15 of 127 (171039)
12-23-2004 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Parasomnium
12-22-2004 1:52 PM


Re: Constructive vs. Destructive Thinking
As far as I know, there isn't even a name for the point where a probability changes in science. So I don't see this constructive discussion of free will, I see much destructive discussion about it on the forum. And these thoughts I see here are hardly original, materialists have been promoting them for centuries already.
I can only say that in our common language it is defined this way that decisions can't be the same as an effect. Much of what we say would become gibberish if we defined a decision to be an effect.
Consciousness controls the brain, is the relationship between consciousness and the brain I believe.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Parasomnium, posted 12-22-2004 1:52 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by lfen, posted 12-23-2004 2:08 AM Syamsu has not replied
 Message 17 by Wounded King, posted 12-23-2004 2:14 AM Syamsu has not replied
 Message 18 by Parasomnium, posted 12-23-2004 3:38 AM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5619 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 19 of 127 (171082)
12-23-2004 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Parasomnium
12-23-2004 3:38 AM


Re: Constructive vs. Destructive Thinking
I can say it with other words, but I think change in a probality is the most precise I've come up with so far. I don't understand why you think this is unclear. Yes like you said is what I intended, something becomes more or less probable, a probability becomes realised, all changes in a probability. The name, a name, for that point please. Then we can start discussing constructively about consciousness in a more formalized way.
All I'm saying is that we shouldn't throw away our common knowledge about consciousness that we have already. That's what's happening on this forum; well science can't find it, therefore there is nothing in it. It is of course likely that science wouldn't find free will, since the science about decisions, about things going one way or another, is almost non-existent. There is some new bigname scientist, I can't remember his name now, but Brad likes to reference him a lot, who does talk of "inherent randomness", which produces order. That scientist considers his own findings to be revolutionary, the most important since Newton and whatnot. Well maybe that scientist would be acceptable on this forum, but I still think the best way to go about it, is to look at what knowledge is in common language, and try to formalize it a bit, and see if it makes sense or not. And it does make sense in my opinion, our common knowledge seems to be right on the mark.
You guess wrong what I consider common knowledge, I'm referring to the way the concept of consciousness is handled in everyday language, and novels, and movies. And I'm not talking about movies, and novels which are selfconsciously about the concept of consciousness, free will etc, but practical usage.
I think the solution to control of the physical is nothing. A decision has a position, but does not seem to have any other physical attributes. So I might trace back a decision to a physical object, like a human being, but then it makes no sense to qualify the decision with the height or weight of the object. It is only the place where the decision occurred. Well maybe you can go further then that, and see it was in the brain of the person, and further, it was an electron in the brain. But I think you can go further then that still, and say it came from nothing, then to the electron, and the rest. (some well-known scientists say that the electron=nothing, but I don't understand this argument)
I think it is very oppressive, elitist, that common knowledge does not get the respect it deserves. And why? Why revert to almost total ignorance just because science doesn't cover it? Basically you're all just liars, using consciousness in common language as if it is true to fact, but not believing it. You say things that you know not to be true, you are therefore lying continuously. A more friendly way to put it would be to say that the common language used is inconsistent with the stated beliefs, but there is a lot of apparent hatefulness involved here towards religion and common knowledge, so it is more like lying.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Parasomnium, posted 12-23-2004 3:38 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Wounded King, posted 12-23-2004 5:32 AM Syamsu has replied
 Message 25 by Parasomnium, posted 12-23-2004 8:05 AM Syamsu has not replied
 Message 27 by lfen, posted 12-23-2004 9:32 AM Syamsu has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5619 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 22 of 127 (171090)
12-23-2004 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Wounded King
12-23-2004 5:32 AM


Re: Constructive vs. Destructive Thinking
What abtruse point are you talking about?
So wait a minute, you are saying that consciousness is not essentially related to decision in mainstream common language, or this must be proven to you?
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Wounded King, posted 12-23-2004 5:32 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Wounded King, posted 12-23-2004 7:48 AM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5619 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 26 of 127 (171097)
12-23-2004 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Wounded King
12-23-2004 7:48 AM


Re: Constructive vs. Destructive Thinking
That is not what I say common knowledge states, you have misconstrued my argument. I say that common knowledge relates consciousness to decision, it's not within common knowledge that every event that goes one way or another demonstrates consciousness of some sort.
I've had it again, I'll take off. Conscious without neccesarily any decision going on whatsoever is actually much how I view evolutionists around here. Automatons of the scientific method.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Wounded King, posted 12-23-2004 7:48 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024