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Author Topic:   The impossibility of infinite ability..aka "god"
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 62 of 94 (450330)
01-21-2008 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by TheNaturalist
01-21-2008 2:22 PM


TheNaturalist writes:
Heres something to think about:
God is supposedly all-powerful...
So, it ought to be able to create, if it so chooses, a being as powerful as god itself is.
Being all-powerful, can god do it? If god cant, it isnt all-powerful, is it?
But if god can, then isnt there a being every bit as powerful as god, rendering god not omnipotent?
????????
Only if he does it. You can't disprove an omnipotent God like that, because being omnipotent doesn't mean "doing everything you're capable of doing".
And oh yes by the way, I need to modify my last post; the question should have been: "Can god, being all-powerful, make 2+2 not equal 4?"
Of course god cant. "2+2" is obviously not anything but 4.
In this universe, within its current laws, 2+2 is always 4. You seem to be missing the point that "God" is supposed to have made these laws, and is defined as being capable of changing them.
Take it from an atheist, you're not doing anything to disprove the existence of a God on this thread. It can't be done, and evidence against certain concepts of God cannot be presented. You can find plenty of evidence against a version of the Abrahamic God that's based on literal interpretations of the Bible or the Koran, but the God of more sophisticated theists/deists is impossible to prove or disprove by its nature.
You can't look at the universe and come up with evidence against a creator God who created the universe as it is (however that is) as it would be the same whether he existed or not.
Incidentally, argument doesn't have an "e" after the "u", not that I'm fussy, but I thought someone may as well learn something from the thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-21-2008 2:22 PM TheNaturalist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-21-2008 4:20 PM bluegenes has replied
 Message 67 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-21-2008 4:33 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 68 of 94 (450365)
01-21-2008 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by TheNaturalist
01-21-2008 4:20 PM


TN writes:
With the example I just gave above: 1. How can you believe theres even anything in the box, 2. what do I mean by "anything", 3. what IS it, 4. am I just delusional?
I'm not sure if your analogy is very good, as I'd immediately agree that there's very likely to be something in the box, like air or dust, if nothing else. Theists aren't saying "something" exists, but that their God or Gods exist. Many don't attempt to present evidence for this, and freely admit that it's a matter of faith, which is honest, at least.
Where some get irritating is when they claim that people who do not believe in whichever God or Gods that they believe in do so on faith, which is when I point out that belief in any supernatural concept for which there is no evidence is active, and that lack of belief in fairies, for example, is passive, and that the difference between monotheists and atheists is that the former lack belief in all the Gods ever invented by mankind except one, and the latter share the same lack of belief, but without exceptions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-21-2008 4:20 PM TheNaturalist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-21-2008 5:57 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 69 of 94 (450375)
01-21-2008 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by TheNaturalist
01-21-2008 4:33 PM


TN writes:
The point was, if god created another omnipotent being, there would be a creature god would be equal to, so he wouldnt be the "alpha" being of the universe.
And heres something: if god did create another omnipotent being, then what if their rules that they made up(or whatever) conflicted each others'? Then, neither set of rules could be applied, since to do so would make one god favored over the other, which couldnt happen if theyre both omnipotent.
"If", you say. I'd say if God created an omnipotent being, then he would no longer be omnipotent, and would have replaced himself with a new God. But this is no argument against an omnipotent God, because the theist who believes in such a God obviously believes his God has not chosen that particular course of action.
I agree that two omnipotent supreme beings is an apparently impossible concept, unless they're clones, and always agree on everything, in which case, why should God choose to split like an amoeba in the first place?
And if this would happen, then neither god could apply ANY rules, making them both completely inept.
The first God, being omniscient, would predict this result, but being omnipotent, could certainly be an inept double God if he wanted to. Perhaps this did happen, and explains his/their apparent absence.
Welcome to EvC, BTW.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-21-2008 4:33 PM TheNaturalist has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2506 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 75 of 94 (450486)
01-22-2008 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by TheNaturalist
01-21-2008 5:57 PM


TN writes:
What? Its the same thing, since just calling that "something" a name, such as "god", is the same as if I gave you the box and said, "here is a fhrdhrujhn".....so, just giving undefined entity a name doesnt mean any more than what my analogy would imply
You mean that theists don't or can't describe their Gods? Well, some try. You could ask ICANT and RiverRat about that, as an interesting exercise to see if you can find two Christians who actually believe in the same thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-21-2008 5:57 PM TheNaturalist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-22-2008 6:43 PM bluegenes has not replied

  
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