The Current Global Recession

Wow, really?! Is that all it takes to get liberals on board, a slight change from old policies and you're jumping on a soap box about the government needed more tax money? Christ dude!Americans truly are blinded by advertisment.

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

What about all of the neglected kids in inner cities where social programs lack governemnt funding? The people, many of them children, who lack health care, decent living, food, education...I'm glad your niece was able to get the treatment she needed, but many don't get any support, and now they want more money? Fuck them.Until our government, AS A WHOLE, shows fiscal responsability the tax payers should not be asked for more money.Should we all line up bent over as well? - bring your own lub, the government lacks lub funding.

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Not in the least, I said "now they want more money"...?I understand the need for tax revenue. I am well aware of the necessary contribution from the citizens who use various programs, roads, government funded aid, etc. The issue is not that we shouldn't pay taxes, rather the issue is, what is the government doing with our tax money and what will they do about the obvious mismanagement of it that we, the tax payers, see?Eventually tax payers get frustrated at the actions of the government which is supposed to work for them, NOT the other way around. A tax increase places more of a demand on the tax payer, who now has to compensate for the difference in their income. Even if it's a small amount, which we can be skeptical of, the fact remains that the government has not proven to the citizens that it works for that they are dependable and responsible with the money they already take from us. How could they ask us for more money if they've shit-the-bed when handling the revenue they already get?Sometimes pumping more money into a failing business can benefit in the long run, but the business itself has to show potential for investment. If it doesn't, no one will invest, without taking a huge risk, which can also be beneficial but at the full risk of the investors, in this case that would be us, the tax payers. I think we should not be asked to take that risk judging by the state of the economy, the job market and the housing market. In my opinion, it's just not fair.

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Yes Your right, you didn't, but your support for the tax increase was reasonably seen when I read it...IMO. I guess I was right, though, you do support the increase? ...due to the governments mismanagement of revenue, over spending and badly allocated investments. Not our fault, nor our burden to pay. At least not in the sense that they should increase our taxes to do so. If they can fuck it up they can fix it. Tough shit - I don't mean to be a cynic but that is a bogus claim. What will cut it is not more of our tax money, it'll be a better managed system. In the long run, since they love to throw that term in our face, if they prove to us that they are resonsible with handling our tax revenue then an increase can be asked for since there will be something to show us for our increased investment. Who told you that, the government or the IRS...?Should we shed a tear for them? Don't worry they'll be in my prayers this tax season.*"Lord if you can hear me, please let the grossly over funded, highly corrupt government that can't seem to budget their finances properly really dig into us tax payers and collect all their deserved revenue this year...In Jesus name we pray, Amen" *PS. "Lord if you can see to it, there are a few million Americans who lack basic necessities like housing, education, food, health care, etc. After you help the government collect all their greed money, can you possibly help the less fortunate too?"..."Oh yeah, Amen" *These should get the bats swinging a little harder - lol

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

You would agree though that coercing voters to vote for a particular side, once realized, pushes the fault back onto the side that did/is doing the coercing, yes?That we continue to allow ourselves to be coerced, and side with one particular side over the other, IS, I will agree, our fault. The latter is where I place the fault on the citizens. But, the power of propaganda is so strong that most don't realized they're being coerced...until it is all the way in. Agreed! Nice...

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

I'm not getting this analogy?You speak of this debt as if you actually took part in the business of spending it. If we are all going to wave off what our government did over the past 8 years, more specifically the last 4 years, with our tax money, then sure, pump more money blindly into a system that has been failing for the last 4 years, just keep waving it off until our arms get tired.If our government wants more of an investment from it's tax payers this US government needs to show it's tax payers responsibility AND lets not forget accountability as well.We are in a recession, in the beginning of a global recession, these are not the times to ask the less fortunate, barely getting by, struggling with their morgages, health care, education, etc, for a raise.As they would say in the ever failing job market, "Sorry US government, we just don't have it in OUR budget to increase your pay. But, we will be evaluating your job performance in the coming years and will re-visit the idea once you have proven your worth". Tubes? What tubes? Does anybody know where the tubes are? Whos controling the tubes? Where are the fucking tubes?! - George Carlin You can make an argument for this and convince many people that you're right, myself included perhaps, but I don't see why we need to pump more money when they have failed with the money they initially had. If we put the horse before cart we see the reality of the situation. They need to prove they can do the job before we invest more.Plus, that is IF we take their word for it that they need the extra money. I don't know if you've ever had to formulate a budget and get funding for it before but I can attest to having inflated many areas where I could have done with much less. Not saying this is happening, but I'm not trusting shit from them.The point is the current economic situation is hurting the middle class and the poor, hard. Why place a bigger demand on them?-and-Why are we getting behind a plan that we aren't sure will work, nor can be sure wll work?Do you really want to take that risk with this government?

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

It was intended more as a joke, but I agree, if it was taken as an analogy it fails to make a point....and apparently it failed as a joke too. In theory, yes. The government seems to always succeed, at their true job, which is to maintain control and keep the public disinformed. I know, it seems like we agree on the terms of the "contract"* but we differ in our opinions on how the matter should be dealt with.*The contract being that citizens are always held responsible for the actions and mistakes of their appointed officials. Yes, but do we trust the very system that has contiuously failed and put us in this predicament to begin with?They will continue to do as they please as long as they know that "we still have to pay for the mistakes that (they) made like it or not"...and that is my whole point.As long as the risk is not theirs to bear it will always make sense in their opinion to spend more, but only when the money to spend more comes from us.But I do agree with you, if we take what "those that actually matter" are saying at face value, spending more seems like the only option. Lets hope though that "those that actually matter" are telling the trust as they see it, and not as they've been told to see it.

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Because the information is never that easy to attain.Of course all of the good shit our government does is accountable for, and the bad things we do hear about are only what they allow to be distributed in the media outlets. It takes years for underground shit to surface, even our own government doesn't know what the government is doing nor can they account for their own spending. Now you put the onus on us to bring the information of the corruption within our government to light? Please kuresu. The system is set up to not allow for such things to surface, nor do any of us actually have the time to do it, again, this is part of the disinformation agenda that is enforced by our government.Like I wrote in my previous post, if we take everything that is said from both sides of the dem/repub camp, you are right, or rather they are right in what they say needs to be done and you are correct in repeating it. The problem is that the system has created such descention that some of us NO LONGER take what they say at face value and have no trust in the media outlets that are conveying the information to us. So don't complain, it could be worse?It's a good thing those counrties exist that way we can always be Scared Straight when we think about complaining. Yes, and without a job you don't eat. However, if you walked into your job everyday and the smacked you in the mouth before work, at what point do you think you'd stop giving a shit about food, and stand up to the shit thats being done to you?- Oni

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

I'll concede on the points, because I really don't want to do the research. Again, what has been made available to the public is not of concern to me, what has not been made available is where my concern is.So, will you agree that we don't know if this information is all the info available, or if they've concealed a lot of it? I will also conced on this point, taxes do some good. Kuresu, when the alternative is nothing, then anything is good and can be shown to improve lives. I will not pretend to know the Swedish opinion, I will take your word for it, but their concern is probably more with the way it is governed than with the actual paying of the tax itself. I'm speculating. And this would be where I stand as well. Ah, the loaded questions. Of course I don't want a depression. I support the troops too. I love America as well. I like democracy over communism. I want "change". I believe in "hope"....just wanted to answer 'yes' in case these where questions to follow.The point is not that a depression is worth the risk of anarchy, but we forget that anarchy is a form of fighting tyranny when all else has proven futile.

quote:

---

Thomas Carlyle who wrote that the French Revolution was a war against both aristocracy and anarchy:

​

Meanwhile, we will hate Anarchy as Death, which it is; and the things worse than Anarchy shall be hated more! Surely Peace alone is fruitful. Anarchy is destruction: a burning up, say, of Shams and Insupportabilities; but which leaves Vacancy behind. Know this also, that out of a world of Unwise nothing but an Unwisdom can be made. Arrange it, Constitution-build it, sift it through Ballot-Boxes as thou wilt, it is and remains an Unwisdom,-- the new prey of new quacks and unclean things, the latter end of it slightly better than the beginning. Who can bring a wise thing out of men unwise? Not one. And so Vacancy and general Abolition having come for this France, what can Anarchy do more? Let there be Order, were it under the Soldier's Sword; let there be Peace, that the bounty of the Heavens be not spilt; that what of Wisdom they do send us bring fruit in its season!-- It remains to be seen how the quellers of Sansculottism were themselves quelled, and sacred right of Insurrection was blown away by gunpowder: wherewith this singular eventful History called French Revolution ends.

---

And I don't mean anarchy, as in no governing body, I mean anarchy as in Anarcho-syndicalist:

quote:

---

Anarcho-syndicalism is a branch of anarchism which focuses on the labour movement. Syndicalisme is a French word meaning "trade unionism" — hence, the "syndicalism" qualification. Anarcho-syndicalists view labour unions as a potential force for revolutionary social change, replacing capitalism and the State with a new society democratically self-managed by workers. Anarcho-syndicalists seek to abolish the wage system, regarding it as "wage slavery" and state or private ownership of the means of production, which they believe lead to class divisions. Not all seek to abolish money per se. Ralph Chaplin states that the ultimate aim of the General Strike as regards wages is to give to each producer the full product of his labor. The demand for better wages becomes revolutionary only when it is coupled with the demand that the exploitation of labor must cease."

---

The worse part is you got me to openly admit my anarchist ways. I tried to keep that on the down-low for fear of my government.

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

How can you know what they haven't made available? Yes I'll get to it as soon as I'm done laughing at people fall off tables on youtube.Investigate the government? Are you serious?Using what resources, the internet? Google search? Ask Jeeves?Come on, kuresu. I do what you do, I wait for a trickle of information to leak out, I just don't trust that it's all of the information. Send the thives to investigate the theives and trust the information they give you if you like, kuresu. I have conceded on specific policies. The claims I make are of the corruption in the system at it's core level, which is in the control and distribution of information. I cannot present evidence for things where the evidence has been tampered with. Nor do I have the resources to investigate the government. I do what you do, I wait for a trickle of information to leak out, I just don't trust that it's all of the information available. And since the government controls big business, how can I trust the information? Not bad, but Radical Fundamentalist Muslim would have made more of an impact in delivering that final blow to me.Let me try.Otherwise, you are no better than the aristocrats who turned their face at what the Ancien Rgime was doing to the poor for fear of losing your meaningless material things. When material things are given more worth than human lives, all is lost. - How was that?Edited by onifre, : felt "Ancien Rgime" was sweeter sounding than "french government"Edited by onifre, : spelling

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

I can agree with that, to a certain extent. But, what do you do when the people running the business continue to fuck it up, no matter what party is in charge? - elect new ones from the same stock? Perhaps, you could certainly make a good case for it. My use of the word "raise" was wrong, I meant sacrifice. In that particular section, I was wrong though. There are other alternatives, but I don't want to drive this discussion into a socialism vs. capitalism debate. Ah, there's that "change" slogan again, lol. Advertising is amazing isn't it?Joking aside, I hope you are right. Seriously, I mean that. Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

I believe that's the first time you've ever greeted me. - lolSup, Catholic Sci. And that I can agree with 100%. I've just grown a fucking heart lately, trust me I don't like it. I've lived very selfishly for a long while, it's ruined a few things - whatever- I grew a conscience and now I kinda care about others less fortunate too. The funny thing is I really don't have shit either, but more than many. Sweet! Then you'd love my stand-up bro.Btw My absolute favorite. I watch it once a day. I just watched it 4 times posting it to you. I think we are too smart these days to be "fucked". And too many have too much at stock to let anything too out of control happen. I don't doubt for a minute that the rich are hurting a bit right now, due to excessive living of course, but they got it in control. Obama won, things will be corrected now that plenty have grossly over indulged, and we'll get back to a stable society. Those that were lost, well...sorry?Whatever we can live with at that point I guess. Those that don't survive the economic low will be replaced by others, and we go round and round. It works, I know that much. Unlike what kuresu may think I do see the functionality of capitalism. It works, period. But at what cost sometimes?Lately I've been taking issue with the "cost" of doing it this way, it doesn't look great when we reflect on it.- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Couldn't agree more.It also burns me that the risk is always worth their -( the government)- taking as long as the working class is there to support it with our heavy tax dollars. If shit goes bad just threaten the work force with struggling ecomomies, constantly show them the failing job market and basically send us into a panic so we work harder, longer hours. It's mental slavery. I meant cost as in the cost of doing business this way, not in the literal sense.In other words, uncontroled and unregulated free markets drive small businesses out. The bigger guy fucks the little guy until there is nothing left BUT the big guy. Which everyone now works for, and is dependant on. Example: mom and pop grocery stores got run out by Walmart. Now everyone works at the Walmart. Now everyone buys at Walmart. Now Walmart controls that market.If everyone works for this one place, and the entire company goes under -for whatever reason(like with the auto factories closing and such)- who's really fucked? The executives that ran the company? Or the workers and that town? I just meant that those who lost their businesses due to the recession get "replaced" by other companies. No one cares about bailing out the small businesses, our money is only going to take care of huge companies where most of the rich have their money invested. What about my friends auto dealer? The indie record store by my house that has been there since I was 10, now they're gone, but we got a Virgin Record Store. I can name a shit load like this, that no government bail out seems to come thier way. No one in our government gives a crap because it doesn't directly affect thier financial wealth, if it did they'd be all over it.That's the cost of capitalism. Those that get lost along recessions get replaced by the bigger guys who can sustain the recession, until just the bigger guys exist, and control every single market, and our lives.

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Yeah. Exactly. They need us to bail them out, with our money mind you. And then through media persuasion they get you to work harder with threates of unemployment.Don't know if you've ever seen this, Propaganda Media. Basically, it's a US Gov field manual on how to use the media to persuade us into doing what they want. Actually used by the Army orginally. True. I don't blame the consumer though, we need to spend our money wisely. I blame unregulated and uncontroled free markets that allow for the giants to monopolize. But if those giants fail, then a lot of people get swept up because all of our eggs are in one basket, so to speak. We are dependent on a few major companies for practically everything. You're right, we don't. Edited by onifre, : provided url

---

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Try it now, CS.Sorry...