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Originally posted by Philip:
Define "mega-evolution"
--Extreme macro-evolution, wherein morphological changes necessarily violate harmonious physiological systems within the organism(s) and wherein expected detrimental mutational changes somehow produce hopeful monsters. In YEC terms, it would be kinds switching. Of course such evolution violates pre-existent physiological parameters and must be viewed as preposterous.
Examples of this, please. Please explain where in Evolutionary Biology this is predicted to occur.
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Define "exquizitely-complexifying organism".
--Higher ordered harmonious complexity and inter-dependencies devoloping. "Exquisite" is does denote a higher percieved order and excellency (harmony symmetry, and proportion) of overall function.
Analogies: A watch vs. a rock.
Define "Exquisitely complex".
--See above
You didn't really define anything.
Provide examples of what you mean from living organisms, please.
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(Any and all enzymes and enzyme systems have barriers that cannot be broken, else catalytic active sites become extinct...)
This is irrelevant. Just because a particular existing enyme pathway is necessary for a particular function, does not mean that
someenzyme pathway might have arisen instead.
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--I'm speaking of detrimental effects of enzyme evolution as barriers.
There are detrimental effects possible in all stages of evolution.
What you would need to be correct is for ALL effects of enzyme evolution to be detrimental, and this is not the case.
Remember the nylon-digesting bacteria?
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What mechanism could possibly overcome such barriers?
You have not demonstrated these barriers.
All the ToE predicts is
an outcome, not neccessarily a
particular outcome.
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--How can catalytic active-sites fall into place then when there is noguiding (particular) mechanism, unless it is pre-existent/APRIORI.
What makes you think that nything in evolution simply "falls into place"?
Methinks thais is yet another variety of "Philip's Argument from Incredulity", or, "I. Philip, can't believe X, therefore X had to have God cause it!"
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Define "mega-devolve".
--The formation of vestiges which encumber an organism to the point of detriment, hence, impossible.
Huh? Vestigials are evidence of devolution? On what planet?
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Define "detriment" in this context.
--Detriment is less survivability.
How is this a problem for Evolution?
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b. Higher Animal Immune systems with all their pre-arranged cascading events, critically harmonious interactions, while able to adapt to antigens via their pre-situated physiology, are fixed and maximally fine-tuned.
Unless you have infinite knowledge of the future, you cannot say that ANYTHING in nature is "fixed and maximally-fine-tuned."
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--I agree that variations may be tolerated to a minimal extent, then stop (as is Drosphila studies).
Cite please.
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c. Musculo-skeletal systems are critically harmonious, with fulcrums, levers, axial joints, etc. that may never be violated without detriment.
Irrelevant. Evolution is simply change; some changes to the genome be for the better, a few for worse, and most to no effect. Whther it is "detrimental" is dependent upon the environment. There is no barrier to macroevolution here.
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--As a podiatric surgeon,
...OK, here we go...
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I could never surgically take a human foot whose biomechanics are in the norm and improve upon the musculo-skeletal complexity of functions.
That's nice.
What does that have to do with evolution?
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Its all dead-end and fixed biomechanics even for the greatest foot surgeon. How much less could it evolve more beneficially.
You have not demonstrated any barrier to speciation with this example.
All you have displayed is your incredulity.
added by edit:
Are you therefore saying that all feet of all people are the same?
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d. Cardio-Circulatory systems, while similar in many taxa, require specific heart types, fixed-communicating arteries, arterioles, etc. that defy beneficial change toward new additions as well as more exquisitely complex ones.
Care to provide evidence that circulatory systems do not change?
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--Monkey heart transplants have failed in humans. If successful they will never benefit past a human heart; surely you can see.
Huh? What the heck does this have to do with evolution?
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A great deal of variation does occur with vascular channels, however, in the arterioles especially. In fact, my identical twin's vasculature is drastically different than mine in arterial and venous stemmings.
But, the main arteries (as per Grey's Anatomy) are set-in and cannot be perfected, only worsened.
So, you ARE claiming to have infinite knowledge of all future generations of humans until the end of time!
Really, Philip, you are making silly "it is so because I say it's so" claims.
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Designing or evolving a better Grey's vasculature is not viable on physiological grounds.
So sez you.
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e. The same holds true for Epithelial and dermatological systems, Lymphatic systems, Head, Eye, Ear, and Nose systems, Heart, Lung, Hepatic, and Renal systems, not to mention the extremely exquisitely complex boundaries of reproductive, embryological, endocrine/harmonal systems, and their evidently dead-end complexity as systems communicate with systems: I.e., How could a retinal system interact more beneficially with the ocular-epithelial system (without wearing glasses), genetically? It can not! The boundary is apparent.
When nearsighted people get eaten by tigers again, evolution will have a greater influence on human eyesight.
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--Only true if spectacles were not designable.
What? This makes no sense.
My point is that the genetic basis of nearsightedness is not likely to be reduced in the population because instead of the nearsighted people getting killed off by predators, being in car accidents, etc., we have invented the means to correct their vision artificially.
They then get to reproduce at roughly the same rate as those with normal vision, so the genetic material remains in the population.
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What strict limits you wish to require of both science and nature!
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Not trying to be a pessimist regarding the ToE, but morphological kinds of organisms a limited in regards to change.
Do you reject all fossil evidence which shows transitions between species?
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There are limits because Philip says there are limits. I understand now. What was I thinking? How foolish of me.
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--My less than meager humble opinion(s).
Baseless opinion.
How do you explain the immunity or resistance to HIV that some people (whose ancestors survived the Black Plague) have? The Plague was also an auto-immune disease which tricked the body into killing it's own lymphocytes, just like HIV does.
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--Hypothetically, God's grace pre-enabled certain gene pools to mercifully allow the ToE to operate in some (this is not a theistic ToE I'm advocating nor god-of-the-gaps mechanism, please don't confuse this). But the pre-existent elements were in place in certain genomes to mutate or code resistance in the DNA itself. Surely, this is miraculous (unless I'm missing something) when there were so few people on earth during the black plague to invoke a substantial mutational ToE effect.
The pre-existing elements (a copying mistake) were there through God's intention?
Then can I also assume that ALL mutations, even those that cause horrible genetic diseases, are there because God made them that way on purpose?
If not, then what criterion can we use to tell the God-caused mutations from the ordinary random mutations?
What about all those genetics experiments where scientists manipulate certain genes? Is God directing those, too?
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Nature selected, through a random mutation, these people to survive through their slightly different immune system.
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--Perhaps, we'll luck-out with AIDS, too?
I thought that luck had nothing to do with it?
Care to retract your statement that immune systems can't evolve?
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Monogomy will probably have to increase/stablilize the nuclear family via social pressures, SANS a genomic-ToE here.
Yes. It's too bad that the US doesn't allow gay marriage, and thus encourage gay people to be monogomous.
Then again, the rate of AIDS is dropping in the Gay community and rising fastest among heteros.
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2) Developmental stages are gross barriers to evolution; violate a preceding stage and find detrimental ramifications upon the rest.
So what? The ToE doesn't predict that systems came about suddenly, but were a gradual development of additions and deletions and redundancies.
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--Right, Shraf, but there's too many complex developmental stages ramifying one on the other.
How many is "too many".
Argument from personal incredulity.
Just because Philip thinks there are "too many" doesn't mean "Godidit".
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) To accept a macro-ToE is to place faith in spontaneous atomic re-arrangements and repeated abiogenesis-like phenomenon.
You are, once again, ignoring NATURAL SELECTION.
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--You are nearsited, always invoking NS;
Natural selection OS the farsighted view that is supportd by the evidence. Mutation happens in an instant; NS has effects over millions of years.
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I am farsighted, always invoking harmonious interdependencies, catalytic active sites in proteins, and other ICs and redemptive phenomena.
You are also arrogant in your notion that if Philip can't imagine it, it must not be true.
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--Of course there's NS SANS changes in Taxonimically classifiable Kinds.
Please explain the barrier which would prevent macroevolution.
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You really do have a profound misunderstanding of how evolution works.
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--You really have a profound misunderstanding of how evolution works.Don't make me become Borg-like at this point in counter-rebuttals.
Heavens, you constantly make up your own terminology, are utterly vague when asked for definitions, and constantly claim that, "Golly, speciation just can't happen because I just can't believe it!"
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Abiogenesis/Spontaneous generation of organelles, organs, tissues, harmones, enzymes, systems, intellect, and finally God-consciousness, are barriers to macro-evol.
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The ToE does not postulate that ANY of these things sprang up spontaneously! Gosh, haven't you learned this yet? I swear I have told you this a dozen times if I have told you once, and that is just me!
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--Nag nag nag. At least one of us is lying. The Mega-ToE is merely a nearsited spontaneous generational theory, in my opinion.
You specifically claimed that whole organs and systems should arise spontaneously in an Evolutionary model, and this is NOT TRUE.
It isn't my problem that you cannot seem to be able to absorb this information, and if you are tired of being corrected, perhaps you might consider not making the claim in the future.
Am I to assume that you do not accept that transitional fossils exist?
Might I inquire as to what you would accept as a transitional fossil?
Then we can look and see if such a fossil exists.
Perhaps a fossil with both dinosaur and bird characteristics? Or both land mammal and water mammal characteristics?
Why would I think that you understand Evolution if you continue to make such silly claims about it?
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You sure write a lot of words, Philip, but maybe if you read a bit more about the subject you are denying, you would make a lot more sense.
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--Appeal to emotions? Appeal to the APRIORI fallacies?
Appeal to education and clarity.
{Tried to clean up quote structure as best I could - Adminnemooseus
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 11-15-2002]
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-17-2002]
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