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Author Topic:   Human Evolution (re: If evolved from apes, why still apes?)
djwray
Junior Member (Idle past 2808 days)
Posts: 5
From: Australia
Joined: 06-06-2009


Message 91 of 128 (523398)
09-09-2009 10:24 PM


To those who have criticised my response for one reason or another let me just say that when I have said I believe something, it is not as though I have dreamt it up. I find it insulting that I have been accused of doing so, despite the fact that I haven't quoted a reference. As you might know there is a lot of debate out there and there are a lot of personal opinions, even among those at the forefront of investigation. For me to say "I know" instead of "I believe" over debatable issues would be ignorance and naivete at its finest. Take it for what it's worth.

My reference to H. habilis and H. erectus wasn't designed to be comprehensive. I could have included a myriad of others if that was my aim. It would have been a waste of my time and yours.

According to some responses people must believe that I have misinterpreted the meaning of the topic. I thought (and still think) it was asking why apes still exist based on an assumption that apes evolved into humans. I was questioning the validity of that assumption. "I believe" that they are too genetically diverse. For those who are having trouble understanding, an analogy would be that "I believe" that a giraffe can't evolve into an elephant.

As I have found in some other forums there is, unfortunately, a stigma attached to those who are assigned the misleading classification of "Junior member". It can bring out an unfortunate, primitive behavior pattern in others known as territorialism.

Have a nice day.


Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Coyote, posted 09-09-2009 11:42 PM djwray has not yet responded
 Message 93 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-10-2009 4:13 AM djwray has not yet responded
 Message 94 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2009 9:28 PM djwray has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5927
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 92 of 128 (523402)
09-09-2009 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by djwray
09-09-2009 10:24 PM


Cousins
I thought (and still think) it was asking why apes still exist based on an assumption that apes evolved into humans. I was questioning the validity of that assumption. "I believe" that they are too genetically diverse. For those who are having trouble understanding, an analogy would be that "I believe" that a giraffe can't evolve into an elephant.

The "assumption" that ancient apes still exist is flawed.

Humans and apes are cousins. In modern terms, cousins are descended from your father's or your mother's generation: their brothers and sisters produced your cousins.

Applying this to evolution, both humans and modern apes evolved from a common ancestor that was not exactly like either. Most likely apes have changed less than humans have, but in either case there are some 4 or 5 million years of changes.

Ancient apes have evolved into modern apes. Ancient apes have evolved into humans. There is no reason to assume that either has remained exactly the same.

As I have found in some other forums there is, unfortunately, a stigma attached to those who are assigned the misleading classification of "Junior member". It can bring out an unfortunate, primitive behavior pattern in others known as territorialism.

On the internet you are known for the quality of your posts. We know nothing else about you, so we judge you on what you post.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by djwray, posted 09-09-2009 10:24 PM djwray has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 93 of 128 (523410)
09-10-2009 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by djwray
09-09-2009 10:24 PM


To those who have criticised my response for one reason or another let me just say that when I have said I believe something, it is not as though I have dreamt it up. I find it insulting that I have been accused of doing so, despite the fact that I haven't quoted a reference.

Yeah, that can happen.

My reference to H. habilis and H. erectus wasn't designed to be comprehensive. I could have included a myriad of others if that was my aim.

Well, would it have included rhipidistian fish?

Where, given the multitude of intermediate forms, would you like to draw the line, and declare --- here the possibility of ancestry stops?

You will always face the same problem --- that of those species that you wish to include, there will always be one species outside that group that is more similar to one of the species inside that group than the species inside that group are to one another.

It would have been a waste of my time and yours.

To speak for myself --- feel free to waste my time. We shall find out if it is a waste of yours.

According to some responses people must believe that I have misinterpreted the meaning of the topic. I thought (and still think) it was asking why apes still exist based on an assumption that apes evolved into humans. I was questioning the validity of that assumption. "I believe" that they are too genetically diverse.

Then perhaps you had better answer my question.

As I have found in some other forums there is, unfortunately, a stigma attached to those who are assigned the misleading classification of "Junior member". It can bring out an unfortunate, primitive behavior pattern in others known as territorialism.

Or perhaps there is some other reason why people familiar with the fossil record don't immediately fall at your feet declaring that of course you are absolutely right.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by djwray, posted 09-09-2009 10:24 PM djwray has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18855
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 94 of 128 (523522)
09-10-2009 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by djwray
09-09-2009 10:24 PM


cognitive dissonance?
Hi again djwray, just a point of perspective:

According to some responses people must believe that I have misinterpreted the meaning of the topic. I thought (and still think) it was asking why apes still exist based on an assumption that apes evolved into humans. I was questioning the validity of that assumption. "I believe" that they are too genetically diverse. For those who are having trouble understanding, an analogy would be that "I believe" that a giraffe can't evolve into an elephant.

Yet in Message 21 you say:

... the lack of evidence (gaps) reveal that there has been an additional influence and that is immigration to Earth, ...

In other words you think chimps, Pan troglodytes, and humans, Homo sapiens are "too genetically diverse," but that aliens can breed with humans?

... which also happens to explain population growth. ...

Curiously, population growth is already explained, and no additional mechanism is needed, simply because the potential unimpeded natural growth rate far exceeds the actual observed rates of growth that have been observed.

As I have found in some other forums there is, unfortunately, a stigma attached to those who are assigned the misleading classification of "Junior member". It can bring out an unfortunate, primitive behavior pattern in others known as territorialism.

Ah, the "poor victim" card.

You will cease to be a "junior member" when you have posted a set number of posts. In that time, presumably, you will have learned the basic protocols of this (or any similar) forum. This includes substantiating your argument with evidence, addressing and answering the issues raised by others as they critique your argument/s.

As you might know there is a lot of debate out there and there are a lot of personal opinions, even among those at the forefront of investigation.

And yet those opinions on their own are still incapable of altering reality. Just because someone has an opinion is no guarantee that the opinion is accurate. Curiously, the scientists involved still tend to support their arguments with actual evidence, rather than just making statements.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by djwray, posted 09-09-2009 10:24 PM djwray has not yet responded

  
valentin.d
Member (Idle past 1012 days)
Posts: 44
From: Moscow
Joined: 09-17-2009


Message 95 of 128 (524973)
09-20-2009 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by NosyNed
12-23-2007 7:42 PM


Re: Congratulations to Kakip!!
It is not necessary to die and far to leave. Let's be realists.
Dear ladies and gentlemen!

I wish to offer you a material for incorporated research for the purpose of find dating.
The fossil of people is found together with dinosaurs

For acquaintance to a material it is presented more than 80 found subjects and 270 photos which have embodied products made by the person, and also a fossil: remains of people, dinosaurs, other animals and plants. Possibly it only a part of a museum which has been created in a vicinity of Moscow, during the various periods is long an epoch of dinosaurs existing on the Earth. According to scientific dating this period proceeded during 150 million years, beginning from 220 up to its termination 65 million years ago.

Here photos:
http:.../THECIVILIZATIONOFTHEEPOCHOFDINOSAURSISFOUNDINRUSSIA
Or: http://picasaweb.google.ru/valentindolzhenko

Yours faithfully: the author of a find, Dr. (Mr.) Valentine Pavlovich Dolzhenko.

Edited by valentin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 12-23-2007 7:42 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by anglagard, posted 09-20-2009 6:53 PM valentin.d has not yet responded

    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2158
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 96 of 128 (524975)
09-20-2009 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by valentin.d
09-20-2009 6:44 PM


Re: Congratulations to Kakip!!
Given this post among many, the state of "journalism" in Russia, which makes even Fox News look good by comparison, and the apparent inability to think critically that is even worse than the average West Texan, I find it no surprise the former Soviet Union essentially lost the Cold War.

I think the time to get your shit together is long overdue.


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
ó Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. Itís us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by valentin.d, posted 09-20-2009 6:44 PM valentin.d has not yet responded

    
valentin.d
Member (Idle past 1012 days)
Posts: 44
From: Moscow
Joined: 09-17-2009


Message 97 of 128 (524978)
09-20-2009 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by RAZD
09-09-2009 7:34 AM


Re: Why still apes
The sort of people has certainly undergone evolution, but when and how it was? However the person always existed among primitive people and various monkeys.

Dear ladies and gentlemen!

I wish to offer you a material for incorporated research for the purpose of find dating.
The fossil of people is found together with dinosaurs

For acquaintance to a material it is presented more than 80 found subjects and 270 photos which have embodied products made by the person, and also a fossil: remains of people, dinosaurs, other animals and plants. Possibly it only a part of a museum which has been created in a vicinity of Moscow, during the various periods is long an epoch of dinosaurs existing on the Earth. According to scientific dating this period proceeded during 150 million years, beginning from 220 up to its termination 65 million years ago.

Here photos:
http:.../THECIVILIZATIONOFTHEEPOCHOFDINOSAURSISFOUNDINRUSSIA
Or: http://picasaweb.google.ru/valentindolzhenko

Yours faithfully: the author of a find Dr. (Mr.) Valentine Dolzhenko
w2002w@bk.ru


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2009 7:34 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by anglagard, posted 09-20-2009 7:22 PM valentin.d has not yet responded
 Message 99 by Coyote, posted 09-20-2009 9:06 PM valentin.d has responded
 Message 100 by RAZD, posted 09-20-2009 9:38 PM valentin.d has responded

    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2158
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 98 of 128 (524980)
09-20-2009 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by valentin.d
09-20-2009 7:14 PM


Re: Why still apes
Repetition is not a valid argument. Goebbels is dead.

Oh and please forgive my incivility.

Welcome to EvC!


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
ó Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. Itís us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by valentin.d, posted 09-20-2009 7:14 PM valentin.d has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5927
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 99 of 128 (524986)
09-20-2009 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by valentin.d
09-20-2009 7:14 PM


Re: Why still apes
Humans did not coexist with dinosaurs.

The dating is off by about 65 million years.

But have a nice day.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by valentin.d, posted 09-20-2009 7:14 PM valentin.d has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by valentin.d, posted 09-20-2009 10:10 PM Coyote has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18855
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 100 of 128 (524989)
09-20-2009 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by valentin.d
09-20-2009 7:14 PM


Re: Why still apes
Welcome to the fray, valentin,

Moscow, Russia.

I was in your fair city in the 70's, with a tour group from Canada. I particularly enjoyed the daVinci Madonna and Child at the Hermitage Museum.

So english is not your first language, we'll try to accommodate you.

However the person always existed among primitive people and various monkeys.

So you don't have any problems with apes, monkeys and people living at the same time, ie the context of this thread.

I wish to offer you a material for incorporated research for the purpose of find dating.
The fossil of people is found together with dinosaurs

While it would be interesting to find examples of dinosaurs living at the same time as people, I am skeptical of this.

Here photos:
http:.../THECIVILIZATIONOFTHEEPOCHOFDINOSAURSISFOUNDINRUSSIA
Or: http://picasaweb.google.ru/valentindolzhenko

I did not see anything there that could be conclusive, certainly all the samples in the photos were out of their context, so it would be difficult to determine dates, etc. Do you have any articles on this published in journals?

Enjoy

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by valentin.d, posted 09-20-2009 7:14 PM valentin.d has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by valentin.d, posted 09-20-2009 11:01 PM RAZD has responded

  
valentin.d
Member (Idle past 1012 days)
Posts: 44
From: Moscow
Joined: 09-17-2009


Message 101 of 128 (524991)
09-20-2009 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Coyote
09-20-2009 9:06 PM


Re: Why still apes
I completely with you agree that: Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
But you as the religious figure who trusts a scientific error. However I trust the facts.
People lived together with dinosaurs!
Once again look at a fossil of people together with dinosaurs!
Here the text: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=2...
Here photos:
http:.../THECIVILIZATIONOFTHEEPOCHOFDINOSAURSISFOUNDINRUSSIA
Or: http://picasaweb.google.ru/valentindolzhenko

Yours faithfully: the author of a find Dr. (Mr.) Valentine Dolzhenko.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Coyote, posted 09-20-2009 9:06 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Coyote, posted 09-20-2009 11:09 PM valentin.d has not yet responded

    
valentin.d
Member (Idle past 1012 days)
Posts: 44
From: Moscow
Joined: 09-17-2009


Message 102 of 128 (524994)
09-20-2009 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by RAZD
09-20-2009 9:38 PM


Re: Why still apes
I have understood it that you do not wish to publish my answer:
I completely with you agree that: Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
But you as the religious figure who trusts a scientific error. However I trust the facts.
People lived together with dinosaurs!
Once again look at a fossil of people together with dinosaurs!
Here the text: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=2...
Here photos:
http:.../THECIVILIZATIONOFTHEEPOCHOFDINOSAURSISFOUNDINRUSSIA
Or: http://picasaweb.google.ru/valentindolzhenko

Yours faithfully: the author of a find Dr. (Mr.) Valentine Dolzhenko.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by RAZD, posted 09-20-2009 9:38 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by RAZD, posted 09-21-2009 7:41 PM valentin.d has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5927
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 103 of 128 (524995)
09-20-2009 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by valentin.d
09-20-2009 10:10 PM


Nonsense -- and off topic besides
But you as the religious figure who trusts a scientific error.

I am not a religious figure. And you have not demonstrated that the science in question is in error.

However I trust the facts.
People lived together with dinosaurs!

Wrong.

I too trust the facts, and the facts show that people did not live together with dinosaurs. You are wrong by about 65 million years.

That is absolute nonsense.

And I say this as a Ph.D. in archaeology/physical anthropology with decades of experience.

Once again look at a fossil of people together with dinosaurs!
Here the text: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=2...
Here photos:
http:.../THECIVILIZATIONOFTHEEPOCHOFDINOSAURSISFOUNDINRUSSIA
Or: http://picasaweb.google.ru/valentindolzhenko

Your pictures mean nothing. There is no context, just some pretty rocks and artifacts.

If you want to demonstrate that people lived together with dinosaurs, the easiest thing to do is find bones of both preserved in the same context. Pictures of rocks and other oddities are not going to demonstrate anything.

Unless you have more than that, your whole claim is a huge waste of time.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by valentin.d, posted 09-20-2009 10:10 PM valentin.d has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18855
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 104 of 128 (525122)
09-21-2009 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by valentin.d
09-20-2009 11:01 PM


where to go?
Hi again valentin,

I have understood it that you do not wish to publish my answer:

Well the problem is that this is a debate forum not a publishing company. Anyone is free to post information, according to the ground rules.

I completely with you agree that: Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Curiously this is not confined to religious beliefs. There are many beliefs that people have that are not based on a rational evaluation of existing evidence and a logical prediction of new information that will validate it. Take conspiracy theorists, or UFOlogists, for example.

However I trust the facts.
People lived together with dinosaurs!

Another group of people with similar beliefs are known as cryptozoologists:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptozoology

quote:
Cryptozoology (from Greek κρυπτός, kriptos, "hidden" + zoology; literally, "study of hidden animals") refers to the search for animals which are considered to be legendary or otherwise nonexistent by mainstream biology. This includes looking for living examples of animals which are extinct, such as dinosaurs; animals whose existence lacks physical support but which appear in myths, legends, or are reported, such as Bigfoot and el Chupacabra;[1] and wild animals dramatically outside of their normal geographic ranges, such as phantom cats or "ABC"s (An acronym commonly used by cryptozoologists that stands for Alien Big Cats).

According to authors Ben Roesch and John Percy Moore, "Cryptozoology ranges from pseudoscientific to useful and interesting, depending on how it is practiced." They further note that it is "not strictly a science", that "many scientists and skeptics classify cryptozoology as a pseudoscience" and that "papers on the topic are rarely published in scientific journals, no formal education on the subject is available, and no scientists are employed to study cryptozoology."[2]

Those involved in cryptozoological study are known as cryptozoologists. The animals they study are often referred to as cryptids, a term coined by John Wall in 1983.[3]


This does not mean that such animals\plants\etc may not be found still existing or to have existed in the near past -- the coelacanth is an example of a type of fish thought to be extinct, but where two (or three) new species have been found living. The Ivory Billed Woodpecker is another example.

Once again look at a fossil of people together with dinosaurs!
Here the text:
Here photos:

Sadly that information is not convincing to me. Making the case for co-habitation of people and dinosaurs is a very difficult task.

Consider a case where ancient people found dinosaur bones on the ground, and then buried their dead in the graveyard because of their beliefs about the bones. Later excavations, if not done very carefully, would not be able to tell that this is what occurred and it would be easy to conclude falsely that people and dinosaurs lived together.

Consider the case of norse and native american people that built houses using the bones of whales. Later excavations, if not done very carefully, would not be able to tell that this is what occurred and it would be easy to conclude falsely that people and whales lived together. If this was built where the ground was ancient seabed one may be tempted to conclude that the humans were aquatic and lived with the whales in the ocean.

In archeology and paleontology context is everything, for without context the fossils and artifacts are disengaged from the time-line of their history, and could easily be the result of fraud (aka Piltdown Man) or just later placement by a number of natural (floods, landslides) or human processes (collections, trophies, religious symbols).

This is why peer reviewed articles in appropriate journals is necessary to establish a baseline of validity for the evidence.

You might want to start with reading these journals to see what kind of articles and criteria they use for publishing.

I just did a google on "Journal of Anthropology and got these leads:

Journal of Anthropological Archaeology

Journal of Anthropological Research

The Journal of Anthropological Sciences

You could do similar for "Journal of Archeology"

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by valentin.d, posted 09-20-2009 11:01 PM valentin.d has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by valentin.d, posted 09-21-2009 10:29 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
valentin.d
Member (Idle past 1012 days)
Posts: 44
From: Moscow
Joined: 09-17-2009


Message 105 of 128 (525138)
09-21-2009 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by RAZD
09-21-2009 7:41 PM


Re: where to go?
Dear Dr. Zen Deist (The American Rebel)!
I understand you, and is very grateful to you for the information!
However it is necessary to remember that, the fossil of people, shows the same version of structure and an antiquity of formation which corresponds to a fossil of dinosaurs.

Interestingly, geologists can reveal this conformity?
And if this conformity is in the nature then why we argue?
And why so much to this theme it is devoted magazines, scientific works, dissertations and scientists which spoil a paper and spend the huge finance of tax bearers?
Or it because, this point in question not only religious, scientific, philosophical, but also political?!
In that case please, you continue to hang up further to me noodles on ears as you do it for the students.

Yours faithfully Valentine.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by RAZD, posted 09-21-2009 7:41 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by hooah212002, posted 09-21-2009 10:45 PM valentin.d has responded

    
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