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Author Topic:   Is biblegod pro life?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 16 of 59 (528362)
10-05-2009 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Izanagi
10-05-2009 11:33 AM


Re: The point is...
Izanaqi writes:
In that particular passage, we can see that is not the case. We know the taking of the woman's life is punishable by death but causing a woman to miscarry is subject only to a fine. This leads to one of two conclusions:
1) The fetus is not considered a life. Life does not begin at conception.
B) If the fetus is considered life, then the life of the fetus is less than the life of the woman.
I dont believe that verse is only speaking about the woman. This problem is one of translation and not of the law in question.
The literal interlinear reading shows that the Hebrew does not limit the application of injury (fatal accident) to just the mother. You have to read this right to left, but if you take special notice of the first and final bolded line, it shows that it is speaking about injury to the baby... 'and goes forth her child' is speaking about the baby being bornn without injury, then the man was to be fined anyway...however the final line says 'and if injury is' then the man was to pay with his life.
quote:
pregnant woman a strike they and , men contend when And
injury is not child her forth goes and
fined be shall he surely
woman the of husband the him upon put may as
judges the with give shall he and
soul for soul give shalt thou ,is injury if And
quote:
Exodus 21:22And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices.
23But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul, 24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25branding for branding, wound for wound, blow for blow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Izanagi, posted 10-05-2009 11:33 AM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Izanagi, posted 10-05-2009 11:17 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 19 of 59 (528420)
10-06-2009 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Izanagi
10-05-2009 11:17 PM


Re: The point is...
Izanaqi writes:
You're joking right? The grammar is so horrific, I can't make heads or tails out of it. It's like Yoda-speak, but worse. Show me the site that actually has it written like this or prove to me that you know how to read Hebrew.
Otherwise, I can't even begin to consider your point if all you did was rearrange words around to fit your point. Even I can do that, but I don't because that would be dishonest and I like to have honest debates.
that is the hebrew 'literal' rendering from an interlinear
i cant give you a link because it didnt come from the interweb
I did say that you need to read it from RIGHT TO LEFT as this is how Hebrew is written.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Izanagi, posted 10-05-2009 11:17 PM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Izanagi, posted 10-06-2009 3:01 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 21 of 59 (528440)
10-06-2009 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Izanagi
10-06-2009 3:01 AM


Re: The point is...
lets get over the semantics and look at the original reading
the hebrew verese does not imply that it is speaking only of damage to the woman for the reason that the penalty was not to be applied until after the birth of the child
only this way would they know for sure if any damage had been done to the baby
If it was only damage to the woman, why wait until the birth of the child before the penalty is applied?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Izanagi, posted 10-06-2009 3:01 AM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Izanagi, posted 10-06-2009 6:31 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 46 of 59 (528825)
10-07-2009 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Izanagi
10-06-2009 6:31 AM


Re: The point is...
Izanaqi writes:
Where in those two versions does it state to wait to see what damage was done to the fetus. I challenge you to find in Exodus 21:22 the exact sequence of words that states to wait until birth to see what damage is done to the fetus and then to apply the fine.
im not interested in those two versions.
they are translations from the original... the translators could have it wrong. The original does not mention miscarriage it mentions the birth of the child
'and goes forth her child and is not injury'
I look at this verse and can see that the hebrew writer was focused on the baby and whether it was injured or not. The only way to know is to wait until the child 'goes forth' and then to determine if any injury had resulted.
Izaniqi writes:
They were only concerned if the man caused the woman to miscarry or if the woman received physical damage. If the woman miscarried but was otherwise unhurt, then the penalty would be a fine.
no for the reason stated above. the original writing is speaking about injury to the child, not the woman.
Under the mosaic law if the woman died, the one who struck her would have to pay the penalty of the law. In this case it is clear that the 'injury' being spoken of is to the unborn child, not the woman.
Izanaqi writes:
I challenge you to show me how you could interpret that passage in any other way.
by going to the original language you can see.
here is another translation which shows more correctly the Hebrew meaning:
quote:
And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. 23But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul
again, here is the original hebrew word for word (this time i've rearranged it left to right for you)
quote:
And when men contend and they strike a pregnant woman
and her CHILD GOES FORTH, injury NOT
surely he shall be fined as the husband of the woman may put upon him
and shall be given with the judges
And if injury IS, soul for soul thou shalt give
If you look carefully you'll see that if the CHILD GOES FORTH injured or not, the striker was still to be fined and go before the juges
if it turned out that the CHILD GOES FORTH injured, then soul for soul was the punishment.
Either way you look at it, the child is what the original writer had in mind, not the mother. Perhaps the later translators did not know ancient hebrew as well as we do today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Izanagi, posted 10-06-2009 6:31 AM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Izanagi, posted 10-07-2009 7:31 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 48 of 59 (528838)
10-07-2009 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Izanagi
10-07-2009 7:31 AM


Re: The point is...
im sorry, i picked up where i left
Just on the pro-choice issue...God has laws that he does not want us to overstep. One of those laws is about taking the life of another... would you agree that murder is the willfull taking of a life?
If you do, then surely you have to agree that abortion is the willfull taking of life.
just to show that even the unborn are considered special to God the Psalmist David wrote this under inspiration:
quote:
Ps139:13For you yourself produced my kidneys;
You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother.
14I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful,
As my soul is very well aware.
15My bones were not hidden from you When I was made in secret, When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth. 16Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, And in your book all its parts were down in writing
I also like these inspired words from Ecclesiaties
11:5"Just as you are not aware of what is the way of the spirit in the bones in the belly of her that is pregnant, in like manner you do not know the work of the [true] God, who does all things"
God wants us to respect life because he is the maker of all living things. Life belongs to him, it doesnt belong to us to take and do what we want with.
The unborn are living beings, why should it be our decision if they live or die?
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Izanagi, posted 10-07-2009 7:31 AM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Izanagi, posted 10-07-2009 8:47 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 51 of 59 (529115)
10-08-2009 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Izanagi
10-07-2009 8:47 AM


Re: Final Thoughts on the Subject
Izanaqi writes:
You could argue Scripture, but I don't believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible. I know I could try to use Scripture to justify what I believe, but that would be disingenuous because I don't believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible and I couldn't tell you what really is God's will. What I can tell you is what I believe and why I believe it.
so what do you believe with regard to abortion and why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Izanagi, posted 10-07-2009 8:47 AM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Izanagi, posted 10-08-2009 10:05 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 53 of 59 (529309)
10-08-2009 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Izanagi
10-08-2009 10:05 AM


Re: Final Final Thoughts on the Subject
Izanaqi writes:
For me, the argument using God was a way to counter fundamentalists who use religion to justify anything they want. It was a way to turn the argument around on them. To continue to use it would be wrong simply because I know that my argument is wrong in the face of evidence.
i agree with you on this point...its not for fundamentalists to insist on how everyone else should act or behave.
God does not force people to behave a certain way and he forbids his followers to try and do so. "Stop judging that you may not also be judged" is a warning to christians not to concern themselves with what other people do. He has not given them any authority to condemn anyone, that is for him alone to do.
so you are quite right in that God allows everyone to choose, but as was mentioned by another poster, God will judge us for our decisions and at his appointed time he will deliver the appropriate pentalty to them. Its up to individuals to search out what Gods requirements are and then try to act in accord with them. this is why most christians would never choose to have an abortion because they view the life as something that belong to no one else but God....and in harmony with the laws against murder, they believe that it is against Gods law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Izanagi, posted 10-08-2009 10:05 AM Izanagi has not replied

  
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