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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Phat
Member
Posts: 9191
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 91 of 114 (799368)
02-09-2017 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Stile
02-09-2017 9:44 AM


Re: Hope this helps
I'm just contrasting me-centered spirituality with Jesus...who denied himself and never thought how he could make a better Jesus.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Stile, posted 02-09-2017 9:44 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 02-09-2017 4:36 PM Phat has responded
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 02-10-2017 11:05 AM Phat has responded
 Message 98 by Stile, posted 02-12-2017 11:50 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28129
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 92 of 114 (799369)
02-09-2017 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
02-09-2017 4:23 PM


Re: Hope this helps
Phat writes:

I'm just contrasting me-centered spirituality with Jesus...who denied himself and never thought how he could make a better Jesus.

But that is NOT what the Bible stories said. The stories show Jesus first being upset about what his mother tells him to do and also shows Jesus using the resources of the Communion for his own personal pleasure and justifying it by claiming he wouldn't always be there. The first shows he did have to think about making a better Jesus and the latter shows a self-centered Jesus.

The point is that the Bible shows Jesus simply as human while living, not some perfect creature.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 02-09-2017 4:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 02-10-2017 12:34 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12703
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 93 of 114 (799440)
02-10-2017 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
02-09-2017 4:23 PM


Re: Hope this helps
Phat writes:

I'm just contrasting me-centered spirituality with Jesus...who denied himself and never thought how he could make a better Jesus.


Jesus thought a lot about making a better YOU. The target is YOU.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 02-09-2017 4:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 02-10-2017 12:32 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9191
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 94 of 114 (799464)
02-10-2017 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
02-10-2017 11:05 AM


Re: Hope this helps
The target is YOU.
I have no problem with that! My point is that we need to avoid the unholy trinity: ME, Myself, and I. We help ourselves by helping others. Surely you agree with this.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 02-10-2017 11:05 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 02-11-2017 10:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9191
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 95 of 114 (799465)
02-10-2017 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
02-09-2017 4:36 PM


Re: Hope this helps
Does the Bible actually teach this lesson or are you inferring the Jesus YOU want to believe in?

I see no evidence that Jesus was later shown to be wrong.

The belief that Jesus was simply an imperfect human is your idea.

You bring Jesus down and lift humans up. Very Jewish.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 02-09-2017 4:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 02-10-2017 12:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28129
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 96 of 114 (799468)
02-10-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
02-10-2017 12:34 PM


Re: Hope this helps
You should know by now that yes, the Bible does teach what I claim and in fact you and I have discussed those passages several times over the decades.

Did Jesus lose his temper and destroy private property in a rage?

When Jesus' mother asked about the party beverages did he immediately obey and honor his mother or grumble?

When his disciples pointed out that he was using community funds for ointments and perfumes that should be given to the poor what excuse did he give for using them for himself?

Phat writes:

The belief that Jesus was simply an imperfect human is your idea.

You bring Jesus down and lift humans up. Very Jewish.

But I don't bring Jesus down or lift humans up; rather I simply point to what the authors of the stories actually wrote and don't pretend those passages are not there.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 02-10-2017 12:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12703
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 97 of 114 (799580)
02-11-2017 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
02-10-2017 12:32 PM


Re: Hope this helps
Phat writes:

My point is that we need to avoid the unholy trinity: ME, Myself, and I.


That doesn't sound like your whole point. Your point for many posts seems to be that Jesus is more important than helping others.

Phat writes:

We help ourselves by helping others.


We may indirectly benefit ourselves by helping others but the main reason for helping others is helping others. It's community benefits that matter, not individual benefits (survival of the species, not just the individual).
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 02-10-2017 12:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2830
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 98 of 114 (799633)
02-12-2017 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
02-09-2017 4:23 PM


Helping Others
Phat writes:

I'm just contrasting me-centered spirituality...

How is trying to help others as much as possible "me-centered" spirituality?

...with Jesus

Didn't Jesus want people to try and help others as best he can?

I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make.

...who denied himself and never thought how he could make a better Jesus.

You'll have to explain this.
I don't remember Jesus denying himself. I remember him trying to do everything he could to help others.
And I seem to remember Jesus trying to make a better Jesus all the time. I seem to remember him asking God for strength to continue on. How is that not trying to better himself?

You seem to have this dichotomy in place in your head, and will twist anything in order to suit it.

Can you actually, really, specifically, explain how me trying to help others is different from Jesus trying to help others?

Why is it "me-centered" when I try to help others, but it's "denying himself" when Jesus tries to do it?
I'd really like to know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 02-09-2017 4:23 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Riggamortis, posted 02-12-2017 6:06 PM Stile has responded

    
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 105
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 99 of 114 (799662)
02-12-2017 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Stile
02-12-2017 11:50 AM


Re: Helping Others
I think it boils down to you doing it because it makes you feel good and Jesus/Christians are doing it 'for god'. Never mind the fact that god will condemn them to eternal damnation if they don't do as he says. They still aren't doing it for themselves! Honest!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Stile, posted 02-12-2017 11:50 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Stile, posted 02-13-2017 2:26 PM Riggamortis has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2830
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 100 of 114 (799699)
02-13-2017 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Riggamortis
02-12-2017 6:06 PM


Why I try to Help Others
Ha ha... I do see your point.

But just to be clear, I don't try to help others because it makes me feel good. I do it because I think it's the right thing to do.

Here's my breakdown:

1. A recognition is made that I am going to have interactions with other people throughout my life.

2. From what I can tell, I have 3 choices:
2a - Try to help the people I interact with.
2b - Try to hurt the people I interact with.
2c - Don't care about the effects I have when interacting with other people.

3. I choose to try to help the people I interact with.

I don't choose this because it makes me feel good. Sometimes it does make me feel good, but many times it does not.
I choose to try to help others just because I think it is the right thing to do out of the possible options.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Riggamortis, posted 02-12-2017 6:06 PM Riggamortis has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 02-14-2017 11:32 AM Stile has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12703
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 101 of 114 (799737)
02-14-2017 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Stile
02-13-2017 2:26 PM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:

I do it because I think it's the right thing to do.


Doesn't doing the right thing make you feel good?

Stile writes:

Sometimes it does make me feel good, but many times it does not.


Maybe it's a short-term/long-term thing. If I help push somebody's car out of a snowdrift, that definitely doesn't feel good. But afterwards I'm glad I did it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Stile, posted 02-13-2017 2:26 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Stile, posted 02-14-2017 11:57 AM ringo has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2830
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 102 of 114 (799740)
02-14-2017 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by ringo
02-14-2017 11:32 AM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
ringo writes:

Doesn't doing the right thing make you feel good?

Like I said, depends on the situation.
Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

Maybe it's a short-term/long-term thing.

Quite possible.

But, lets say (for the sake of argument) that every single time I do something good, I feel good.

Just because that happens, doesn't mean the reason I do good things is in order to feel good.

Everytime I purchase something, I lose money.
That doesn't mean that the reason I purchase things is to lose money.

I may not be able to show or prove to you that my reason for doing good things is, indeed, because I want to help people instead of hurt them.
However, no one else can show or prove that my reason for doing good things is, indeed, because I get a good feeling from it either. If they think such a thing of me.

It's the sort of thing you just have to take my word for it.
Or you can think I'm lying.
Or you can think I'm mistaken, or confused.

It also doesn't really matter to me. My morality and my motivation for such is obviously a very personal and subjective thing. I can't fool myself, so whatever's going on I better be honest with myself about it. It's just easier on my brain that way. I don't really care if anyone else believes me about my own feelings. They're mine, and I'm the only one who really knows what's going on with them. As far as I know, anyway.

I'm sort of guessing that this is what you were getting at? Hard to tell.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 02-14-2017 11:32 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 02-14-2017 12:07 PM Stile has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12703
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 103 of 114 (799742)
02-14-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Stile
02-14-2017 11:57 AM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:

But, lets say (for the sake of argument) that every single time I do something good, I feel good.

Just because that happens, doesn't mean the reason I do good things is in order to feel good.


"Reasoning" isn't always conscious. The instinct to promote the survival of the species may be offering you a shot of endorphins without you being aware of it.

Stile writes:

It's the sort of thing you just have to take my word for it.
Or you can think I'm lying.
Or you can think I'm mistaken, or confused.


Or I can wait fifty years for you to catch up with me.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Stile, posted 02-14-2017 11:57 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Stile, posted 02-14-2017 12:36 PM ringo has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2830
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 104 of 114 (799748)
02-14-2017 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by ringo
02-14-2017 12:07 PM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
ringo writes:

"Reasoning" isn't always conscious. The instinct to promote the survival of the species may be offering you a shot of endorphins without you being aware of it.

I still don't see your point.

Again, for the sake of argument, let's say I get a "shot of endorphins" every single time I do something good.

I'm talking about why I do good things.
And the reason I do good things is because I want to help people instead of hurt them.

Is it possible that I might do a good thing without consciously reasoning it? Sure. I would say this "doesn't count" for me choosing to do a good thing, though. How could it? This would be more of an accident-serendipity kind of thing.

That still doesn't change the fact that when I choose to do a good thing, I do it because I want to help others instead of hurt them. And that I do not choose to do good things because it's going to make me feel good.

Or I can wait fifty years for you to catch up with me.

In 50 years I gain the ability to read other people's minds? Impressive

Perhaps you do choose to do good things because it makes you feel good.
I don't really have an issue with that.

But that's not why I choose to do good things.

I'm sure many people have many different motivations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 02-14-2017 12:07 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Modulous, posted 02-14-2017 4:19 PM Stile has responded
 Message 108 by ringo, posted 02-15-2017 2:10 PM Stile has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7210
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 105 of 114 (799757)
02-14-2017 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Stile
02-14-2017 12:36 PM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Is it possible that I might do a good thing without consciously reasoning it? Sure. I would say this "doesn't count" for me choosing to do a good thing, though. How could it? This would be more of an accident-serendipity kind of thing.

That still doesn't change the fact that when I choose to do a good thing, I do it because I want to help others instead of hurt them. And that I do not choose to do good things because it's going to make me feel good.

It depends on what a choice is. When does a choice happen? Some, small, evidence suggests we make make a decision before we make a choice, where 'choice' is the conscious experience of making a decision. In a sense the experience of choosing is the rationalization after the fact of deciding.

You neurons don't want to help others, neither do the clusters of neurons. At some point up the hierarchy of consideration a 'desire to help others' emerges - but that 'desire to help others' is almost certainly built upon things doing stuff without consideration of others per se. The pathways in your brain that lead to your decision to help others were shaped by reward/punishment trials in your past. Helping others has proven socially useful, which has reinforced the behaviour. The reinforcement process occurs using such things as neurochemicals which have the advantage of acting on multiple neurons over a period of time.

So while 'you' - the consciousness - 'chooses' to help others because 'you' want to. 'You' only 'want' to because of mindless things lower in the hierarchy weighing the possibilities at the time. Whether it makes 'you' feel good is not necessarily the only consideration. Its whether the behaviour is positively reinforced as a result of the consequences of your helping.

Possibly.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Stile, posted 02-14-2017 12:36 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Stile, posted 02-15-2017 12:04 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

    
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