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Member (Idle past 4516 days) Posts: 250 From: Tasmania, Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Adding information to the genome. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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Kaichos Man writes:
Very well. Ralians. And you can prove it by naming an atheist who doesn't believe in evolution? I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping handMy image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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Kaichos Man writes:
And as longs as that isn't too severe, it does not impede the organism and will thuis be given to its offspring. Who can then have a mutation that makes it all nice and straight again. The shrinkage of the malleus and incus must happen at the same time as the expansion of the dentary, otherwise a misshapen jaw results (e.g. an overbite or an underbite). I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping handMy image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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Kaichos Man writes:
But if it is "neutral" (not disadvantageous or advantageous), then it will still be passed on to the offspring. If they then have a mutation that makes it beneficial, you've got what you want.
As you well know, the rule with stepwise mutations is that each must confer a survival advantage (in order to become fixed in the population). An overbite or underbite, severe or not, is never going to be a survival advantage. What you're suggesting is reminiscent of Kimura's "survival of the luckiest".
No it isn't. Luck has nothing to do with it.
Though this particular cynodont would have to be extra lucky to a) survive being selected out with a misshapen jaw...
There's no selection at all, if it isn't impeding it, it's passed along.
...b) have progeny that possess a compensatory mutation.
Yes, the offspring would have have a mutation that makes it right again, tthis doesn't have to be the immediate descendant though, as long as there's nothing to impede the creature, it will hapily pass along the "crooked" jaw. I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping handMy image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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Trae writes:
They probably would. Though I don't think Scientologists have problems with evolution. At east, I haven't heard they do. I wonder if some Scientologists and some subsection of Buddhists wouldn't also apply here? I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping handMy image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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Thank you galactic lord for confirming my suspicions. They say evolution happened. It's completely wrong in how it went, but still, it's some sort of evolution.
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping handMy image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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subbie writes:
But Kaichos man's challenge was to name one (yes, one) atheist who doesn't accept the theory of evolution. Apparently, Scientologists accept some form of evolution, even if they are completely wrong about it. Ralians, however, are both atheists and reject evolution. Yeah, but I didn't think Elroners believed in gods.... I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping handMy image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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LucyTheApe writes:
Yes, creation and creationist, that's what Coyote said. No need to repeat that. And creationism isn't a bad word, no need to censor it.... That has led to the whole field of #%$&%%## "science," which seeks to shoehorn those beliefs into some semblance of scientific language in order to allow #%$&%%##s to continue to believe that science corroborates their beliefs when the exact opposite is more often the case. I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping handMy image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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Huntard, do you believe that information systems evolve solely as a natural process, or do you know they do?
they evolve solely by natural processes, simply because if something evolves, it is a natural process. I have not seen any information system come about without anything natural either.
Does energy and matter create themselves purely as natural process?
What has that got to do with anything? And yes, they do. Energy turns into matter and matter into energy all by itself.
Is that what you believe or do you know it to be the case?
So far all evidence points to the fact that it does.
Can you show me how rocks turned into humans, or is that just a belief?
If that is what you think happened, then yes, that is a belief. An erroneous one at that.
How strong is your belief in science, will you still believe tomorrow?
I don't believe in science. It has convinced me of it's useful and accurate nature.
Do you believe that what you believe is a belief?
Yes. Beliefs are beliefs. I don't hold too many of them though. I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping handMy image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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LucyTheApe writes:
That's not the question you asked, this is:
You're not answering the question, your begging it. Just answer the question honestly. Do you believe natural laws produce information systems. And if so how? LucyTheApe writes in Message 148:
Nothing in there about laws. You changed your question when you didn't like the answer. When you bring in natural laws, what do you mean by "information system"? Anything that contains information? Then the answer is yes, they arise by natural laws.
Huntard, do you believe that information systems evolve solely as a natural process, or do you know they do? Then you flip an adjective into a noun without suspecting that I'll see your dishonesty.
MY dishonesty? You changed the question when you didn't like the answer. How's that for dishonesty?
It's got everything to do with everything. I'm not talking about conservation, I'm talking about creation. Does matter create itself?
Yes, out of energy, all the time. Still has nothing to do with information though.
Or do you interpret bits of the evidence to fit what you believe?
No. I'm not a creationist.
So you don't believe the whole theory, just the parts that you want to believe.
I don't believe any of it. It has convinced me of its accuracy. belief has nothing to do with it. I'm not a creationist. And nowhere does the theory of evolution say men came from rocks. That is you erroneous belief. No idea why you quoted that last sentence again without commenting though. Like I told you, I don't hold that many beliefs. I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping handMy image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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Kaichos Man writes:
Yes, that's because our "side" cares about such pesky little things as accuracy and truth.
It's only your side of the debate that considers them errors. Do you agree with that, Percy? Are you convinced that relaxation of selective constraint is a prerequisite for evolutionary progress? Do you believe we must be liberated from the erroneous tenets of neo-Darwinism?
Nowhere did he say they were erroneous. You made that up. He wants to relax them, meaning he thinks they play a lesser part than hitherto thought. He doesn't say they are completely wrong.
I asked you (and Coyote, I think) to explain how the genome can evolve by one method and the phenotype by another. If I am wrong, then please forgive me, but I don't recall getting an answer on that one.
the evolution of the phenotype is a result of the evolution of the genotype (if I am not mistaken).
No they are not. And unacceptance does not mean uncomprehension.
It's not that you just don't accept it, you keep repeating the same mistakes.
Indeed. And if your opponent doesn't feel your rebuttal is effective, he's likely to keep using the same arguments.
Yet your arguments have been delt with, the answers given, you just ignore them. That's not just not accepting them, that's completely ignoring anything that doesn't agree with what you think. Like my mamalian jaw "slowly" evolving example (which was first mentioned by RAZD), I'm guessing you now accept that this is how it could have happened? You didn't respond to my last post on the subject, so I guess your satisfied with the answer. I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping handMy image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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Kaichos Man writes:
The large role they played in certain situations was wrong according to Kimura. Nowhere does he claim it never happened, nor that it isn't happening within his research. So there are no "erroneous tenets".
So our thinking was erroneous with regard to the part they played. That's because the answers given did not, in my opinion, deal with my arguments, so I am well within my rights to ignore them.
Then explain why they are not, don't just repeat yout original statement.
Huntard, do me the honour of not considering me a complete idiot.
I don't. But don't act like ou don't understand anything either.
You will know when I believe my argument has received a mortal blow (or been manoeuvred into apparent deadlock) because I'll probably stop talking about it and change the subject.
Ah. Like the jaw, for example. Ok. Would be a bit clearer if you'd admit it, rather then just stop talking about it tough...
No, quite the reverse. Have you seen the last few exchanges between myself and Wounded King? That discussion has changed markedly...
Which means (as you have stated above) you now think it could've happened gradually. I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping handMy image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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Kaichos Man writes:
They do. Why do you think this means it fills two roles? It does exactly the same in both steps. Selecting favoured stuff, and discarding unfavoured stuff, so to say. I don't see two, hence the question. You have pointed out that steps 3 and 4 both require natural selection. How so? I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping handMy image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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Kaichos Man writes:
Yes, it is. Natural selection is one proces, and it fulfills one role. Selecting.
Well, that's one explanation, though it could be argued that it's the same process viewed from different angles. No matter. What is important from the point of view of "Adding information to the genome" is that Kimura clearly saw no significant role for selection in the creation of variation. He attributes that to gene duplication and random drift.
As does every other biologist. At least, I haven't seen one that thinks natural selection is responsible for variation. That's what mutation is for. I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping handMy image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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Kaichos Man writes:
So? What's your point with this? You're missing the point here, Coyote. Kimura is saying that hemoglobin didn't have to vary at all. That's why he calls it "unnecessary evolution". I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping handMy image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
I find it very funny and ironic that you are the one complaining about obfuscation. I remember a certain thread where only after about 100 posts or so it became clear you actually wanted to talk about something different then what you had asked in your OP.
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping handMy image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
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