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Author Topic:   When was the Book of Daniel written?
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(1)
Message 1 of 83 (536054)
11-19-2009 1:37 PM


I previous started a thread to talk about some of the abstract issues regarding prophecy with reference to the Book of Daniel but that didn't go as I had hoped. A few people seem to have an interest in the dating of Daniel so I would like this thread to be all about when this book was written.
As far as I know, there are actually 3 positions on this.
1. Daniel was written sometime in the 6th century B.C. by the prophet Daniel starting in the reign of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon after Daniel and a contingent of Jews were captured during the conquest of Judah. This is supported by claims that the writing describes the times, supposidly describes them accuratly, supposidly uses language from the times, as well as others.
2. Daniel was written sometime in the 2nd century B.C. by a pious person writing under the pseudonym of Daniel to prophesy about events current to the times. This is supported by innaccuracies within the text of Daniel regarding Babylonian history, suprising accuracy about 2nd century events, linguistic artifacts of late origin, the fact that the only copies of Daniel that we have are from the 2nd century, and much more.
3. Daniel was a combination of an early writing adapted and expanded to include references to the current, tumultuous times. Basically a "we don't know" best of both worlds kind of argument.
I think that there is a difficulty in pinning down exactly which is right because like I mentioned to Peg in another thread, I think that there is room for the inadequacies of each argument to hide within the lack of information we have about this book and behind fuzzy definitions and interpretations. That being said, I believe that if you take all the evidence as a whole for each that the weight of the evidence rests with #2. Looking at all there is to know, you come to the conclusion that only with a vast number of explanations, re-definitions, and primarily theological arguments can you even make the claim that ANY part of Daniel MIGHT have been written early rather than late. This I believe is the concensus of modern Biblical scholarship as well as just plainly where the evidence seems to lead.
So for this discussion I would like to set the following ground rules.
1. I would like to avoid the theological argument regarding prophecy. (i.e. Daniel predicted things, therefore other claims of fact in Daniel are beyond reproach) Daniel being accurate prophecy is a seperate argument and has no bearing on weather or not the other statements of fact within the book can be scrutinized.
2. I would in general like to avoid arguments from a purly theological perspective. (i.e. Daniel cannot be wrong because that would make the Bible wrong which would make morality wrong which means the world is gonna end......)
3. In general, I would like to keep the discussion as scholarly as possible, with resepect for both the pious and skeptical positions on this issue.
In my participation in this thread I will be making the following shortcuts for a few names.
Nebuchadnezzar (or various other spellings) will just be called 'Neb'.
Belshazzar will just be called 'Bel'
Nabonidus will be 'Nabo'
Maccabean can be shortened to Mac.
I'll start off where I last left Peg which we were discussing the identification of Bel and how he is evidence for either a late or early dating and we can bring up new arguments from there. I'll do this in my first non-OP post.
This should go into the bible accuracy forum.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 4 of 83 (536089)
11-19-2009 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Peg
11-19-2009 6:54 PM


Bring out the scales!
1. Daniel is a part of the Hebrew canon and the hebrew cannon was closed before the 4th century BCE. The priests did not allow any new books to be added to the canon and evidence of this is that the apocryphal books and the Macabees were never included in the canon. This adds weight to this because it shows that the priesthood stood as guardians of the scriptures and did not allow them to be added to willy nilly. No new books have been added since the 5th century according to Jewish tradition.
That might be big news to the Hebrews! They closed their canon in the 1st century CE and by your logic would have left out all of the prophets, psalms etc. In fact there were 3 different sets of books that the Hebrews had "closed" canons at DIFFERENT times and they are:
Torah - 400BC - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy
Prophets - 200BC - (Notice the lack of Daniel) Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc
Writings - 100CE - (Notice the presence of Daniel) Psalms, Proverbs, Job, .... Daniel, Ezra, Chronicles
Your other arguments have some subtlty as to why they are wrong but this one is just plain and simply wrong. Daniel is a late addition to the Hebrew scripture, moreover it actually supports the late dating because it was not included when the Prophets were canonized even though Daniel most certainly SHOULD have been considered on par with Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. Christians move Daniel out of writings and near the other exilic prophets which is telling on a number of levels. It is more than worth noting that this was done at 200BC just before the argument for the late dating suggests that Daniel was written ~167BC.
I will admit that this is only suggestive of the dating of Daniel. It is TECHNICALLY possible that Daniel was written at any point between 600BC and 100CE. The canons only show us when Daniel was regarded. The Hebrew's had 2 chances to include an early Daniel into their canon. Once at 400BC which they didn't but they also didn't include the other exilic writings. But it IS curious why they did not include him in 200BC when they explicitly DID include the other exilic writings.
The Hebrew canon being closed at 400BC is just plaininly a non-starter Peg. It is factually incorrect that it was closed at 400BC and even if it was, it would have been missing MOST of the books we know today.
2. Jesus Christ himself accepted Daniels prophecy ....
Except for theologically, it is perfectly acceptable for either Jesus or Matthew or both to have been wrong.
3. Parts of the book of Daniel was also found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the parchments of Daniel were dated to be 2nd century BCE. For this reason and the fact that the book was already in circulation by early in the 1st century, it has been concluded that:
The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible: *A Maccabean dating for Daniel has now to be abandoned, if only because there could not possibly be a sufficient interval between the composition of Daniel and its appearance in the form of copies in the library of a Maccabean religious sect.*
This is a decently lousy argument because we have absolutly no idea how long it would take a text to be regarded in Qumran. For all we know, the author of Daniel could have been a member/leader of said Maccabean sect in which case it would have been regarded immediatly. There are exactly ZERO copies of Daniel that date older that 167BC and all the DSS copies date to the late 2nd century BC. There may have been as much as a half a century for Daniel to be circulated. Plenty of time especially considering that it was an apocolypse regarding the troubles the Hebrews were having at the time. Daniel also is not that large of a book and was broken into sections some of which differ from the canonical texts (another problem for biblical inerrancy).
There are just SO MANY unknowns and you cannot possibly make this claim. We don't know who the 2nd century author was, we don't know the level of interest in this type of writing or this author. We do have a relativly large window of opportunity and we do know that Daniel was being copied to the point of being differentiated by the late 2nd century when the DSS scrolls are dated.
4. the Jewish historian Josephus states that the prophecies of Daniel were shown to Alexander the Great when he entered Jerusalem. This was about 332 BCE. Jewish Antiquities, XI, 337 [viii, 5]
And Josephus lived when???
I'll skip the rhetorical question. Excuse me if I don't regard the writings of a 1st century CE jewish apologist as evidence that anything like the sort happend when Alexander came into Jerusalemin 337 BC. There is no evidence contemporary to Alexander that any such event happened.
5. Parts of Daniel are written in both Hebrew & Aramaic. About the Aramaic portion of Daniel, The International Standard Bible
Encyclopedia says:
*When the Aramaic vocabulary of Daniel is examined, nine-tenths of it can be attested immediately from West Semitic inscriptions, or papyri from the 5th cent. B.C. or earlier. The remaining words have been found in sources such as Nabatean or Palmyrene Aramaic, which are later than the 5th cent. B.C." (Vol. 1, p. 860) The style of writing and the terms used are a strong evidence of very early authorship.
This is IMO the best of the evidence for an early dating. I don't have the personal expertise to criticize it nor can I find any layman's criticism of it. I'll note just like the canon argument, it does not date Daniel. It dates the language. We can certainly hypothesize that the late author of Daniel certainly was at least trying to make it seem like the writing was contemporary with the exile. Perhaps he also wanted the language to sound like it was contemporary too. I can certainly imagine that if I wanted to write a book of the Bible and make it sound like it fit the King James language that I would be able to do that right now if I was careful.
But I conceed this point, I just don't have the chops to defeat it. It is one chip on the scale of the early dating against what I can see as much more on the side of the late dating.
6. The 6th Century prophet Ezekiel was a contemporary of Daniel who served as a prophet during the Babylonian exile. Ezekiel mentions Daniel by name a number of times in his own writings. So if Daniel really was forged, then so was the book of Ezekiel.
Ezekiel does not mention the exilic Daniel and certainly does not do it a "number of times". He mentions a person named Dan'el and only does so twice in the exact same context less than 10 verses apart. Dan'el was a non-Hebrew hero just like Noah and Job that Ezekiel mentions in the same breath. In fact, he mentions Dan'el in between the two, "Noah, Dan'el, and Job". What is similar about them? They were all non-Hebrew, considered righteous (in context of Ezekiel 14), and long gone. In the context of Ezekiel 14, it is not possible that he could have been refering to the Daniel of the exile. Note Ezekiel verse 20 (...they could save neither son nor daughter...) and that Daniel of the exile had no kids. The Babylonians made sure of that.
7. The fact is that Daniel gave the timing of the Messiahs arrival. his prophecy regarding the 69 weeks of years is a messianic prophecy about when the Messiah would appear. Daniel 9:25-26
Even IF this was a prophecy of Jesus which it is not, it just means that Daniel was pretty good about being a prophet 200 years before Jesus rather than 600 years before. It doesn't prove that it was written in the exile at all.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Peg, posted 11-19-2009 6:54 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Peg, posted 11-19-2009 8:38 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 5 of 83 (536092)
11-19-2009 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jazzns
11-19-2009 1:37 PM


Clearning a few things up about Bel
I said what I wanted to about Bel in the other thread but just to clarify:
Here is the lineage of Babylonian kings from Neb:
Nebuchadnezzar 604-562
Amel-Marduk 561-560 (Neb's son)
Neriglissar 559-556 (Neb's son-in-law, killed Amel)
Labasi-Marduk 556 (Neri's son)
Nabonidus 555-539 (noble, in a plot with his son Belshazzar killed Labasi)
This we have contemporary history for. With just this information, Bel was not related to Neb at all. His dad Nabo was a
ursurper to the throne.
There is an apologist argument to this that one of Neb's daughters Nitocris married Nabo making Bel her son or at least
step-son. But there is no evidence for this. It is also suggesting that Nitocris, the mother of Labasi-Marduk who was
KILLED by Nabo would marry the very man who murdered her son in order to take the throne. (Labasi was only a kid when he took over for his dad)
So lets recap:
1. Bel was not a "king" unless you redefine king.
2. Bel was not the "son" of Neb unless you redefine "son"
3. Bel was not even related to Neb which makes it weird when Daniel has him calling him "father"
How did Daniel get it so wrong then? The Book of Baruch helps us out with that. This is a writing that would have been contemperaneous with a 2nd century Daniel. In it "Baruch" says:
And pray for the life of Nabuchodonosor king of Babylon, and for the life of Balthasar his son, that their days may be upon earth as the days of heaven:
And the Lord will give us strength, and lighten our eyes, and we shall live under the shadow of Nabuchodonosor king of Babylon, and under the shadow of Balthasar his son, and we shall serve them many days, and find favour in their sight.
So we know at the very least, that some people writing in the Mac period had the belief that Bel was the son of Neb. Who knows why. Bad oral tradition, bad record keeping of Babylonians under Persian and subsequently Greek rule? The point is that it was apparently common enough for more than one Mac writer to mention it.
Last point I wanted to clear up was the conquest of Babylon. You claimed that it was violent, Isaiah claims it should be violent. But both the Cyrus Cylinder and Chronicles of Nabonidus (the same place you get your touted contemporary reference to Bel) both mention that the conquest of the city itself was bloodless.
Cyrus Cylinder - Wikipedia
Nabonidus Chronicle - Wikipedia

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jazzns, posted 11-19-2009 1:37 PM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Peg, posted 11-19-2009 10:24 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 7 of 83 (536102)
11-19-2009 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Peg
11-19-2009 8:38 PM


Re: Bring out the scales!
why would it be missing books???
Because the Jews only canonized the Torah in 400BC. Did you even read what I wrote?
Only because you assume that the books were written late.
Not at all! Many of the books that did not make it into the 400BC canon were already written. I never claimed for example that Jeremiah was late. In fact all evidence points to that book being about 6th century BC. It just wasn't part of canon until 200BC. You made the claim that the Hebrew canon was closed at 400BC. It wasn't. That's a fact.
However according to Jesephus, ....
Josephus was writing ~100 CE AFTER the last Hebrew canon.
You are basically engaging in history denial if you are claiming that the Jewish Old Testament is as it was at 400BC.
If jesus was the Messiah, then he could not have been wrong becuase the Messiah was sent by God
Not interested in theological arguments for dating Daniel.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Peg, posted 11-19-2009 8:38 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Peg, posted 11-19-2009 10:46 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 18 of 83 (536185)
11-20-2009 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Peg
11-19-2009 10:24 PM


Re: Clearning a few things up about Bel
So there is external evidence that Nitocris married Nabo & that she was the daughter of Neb.
From a 5th century writer, not contemporaneous, and at BEST would make Bel the step-son of Nitocris, the step-grandson of Neb.
Still not related to Neb. Sorry
The prophecies show that Babylon was to be taken by one named Cyrus.
Which brings us to our next inaccuracy in Daniel. Daniel says it was Darius!
The point about the violent overthrow of babylon was to point out that even though there was some outlying battles, the city itself was taken with out a fight as claimed by both the Cyrus Cylinder and the Nabonidus Chronicle.
You say that the takeover was bloodless. This means you are saying that no one died when Cyrus overthrew Babylon. Are you able to provide some evidence that no one died in the takeover?
Yea! I did in the very post you are replying too. I gave links. You can read them for yourself as they have been translated. They claim that the takeover of the city was bloodless. What do you take that to mean?

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Peg, posted 11-19-2009 10:24 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Peg, posted 11-22-2009 7:31 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 19 of 83 (536186)
11-20-2009 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Peg
11-19-2009 10:46 PM


Re: Bring out the scales!
perhaps you can explain what books you are refering to as the canonized torah of 400bce
I did peg. Please, are you reading my posts?
The Torah is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Thats it. That is what was canonized in 400BC.
Development of the Hebrew Bible canon - Wikipedia
Rabbinic Judaism recognizes the twenty-four books of the Masoretic Text, commonly called the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible. Evidence suggests that the process of canonization occurred between 200 BCE and 200 CE. A popular position is that the Torah was canonized circa 400 BCE, the Prophets circa 200 BCE, and the Writings circa 100 CE[1] perhaps at a hypothetical Council of Jamniathis position, however, is increasingly criticised by modern scholars.
Admittedly there is some room to wiggle. But most of the argument is about if the canon was closed or not, not that the Hebrews regarded different books at different times.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Peg, posted 11-19-2009 10:46 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by PaulK, posted 11-20-2009 10:47 AM Jazzns has replied
 Message 29 by Peg, posted 11-22-2009 7:50 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 21 of 83 (536238)
11-20-2009 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by PaulK
11-20-2009 10:47 AM


Re: Bring out the scales!
Yuppers.
I didn't have time to do a lengthy reply but the basic idea is that a 400BC dating for a closed jewish canon is just plain wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by PaulK, posted 11-20-2009 10:47 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 22 of 83 (536243)
11-20-2009 5:25 PM


List of basic innaccuracies
So part of the evidence for a late date of Daniel are the historical inaccuracies of the 6th century COMBINED with surprising accuracy of the 2nd century. So I want to start collecting a list of 6th century inaccuracies.
We sort of jumped ahead into into chapter 5 with a discussion of Bel. But lets go back to the beginning of chapter 1. We don't have to go any farther than the first verse.
In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. And the Lord delivered Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, along with some of the articles from the temple of God. These he carried off to the temple of his god in Babylonia [a] and put in the treasure house of his god.
Here is the history of that time.
Jehoiakim (Jeho) was put into power by the Egyptians in 608 BC. What would have been 3 years later, Neb was a very busy man fighting and winning the battle of Carchemish. No time to deal with puny little Judah which was merely a vassal state of Egypt who was his real concern. After that battle Neb, still a prince at the time not a king, goes back to Babylon to take the throne after his fathers death. The first attack on Jerusalem is in 597 during Jeho's 11th year when Jeho tries to rebel against Neb. At that time all Neb does is knock off Jeho and take a bit of booty. Neb comes back in 586 to finish the job, destroy the temple, and begin the exilic period of the Jews.
So here is the thing, this means that Daniel, supposedly writing in the 6th century, has the facts concerning his own exile and enslavement wrong!
Jehoiakim - Wikipedia
NEBUCHADNEZZAR - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Jehoiakim - New World Encyclopedia

Summary of 6th century inaccuracies so far:
Chapter 1
  • Daniel is unaware of the dating of the events culminating in his own exile.
...
Chapter 5
  • Daniel incorrectly identifies Bel as Neb's son.
  • Similarly, he misidentifies Neb as Bel's father
  • Daniel incorrectly refers to the conqueror of Babylon as "Darius the Mede". Darius was a successor to the REAL conqueror Cyrus and came into power likely after Daniel's death. He also was a Persian, not a Mede.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.
Edited by Jazzns, : formatting
Edited by Jazzns, : Added some more of Daniel 1 for context.

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 40 of 83 (536485)
11-23-2009 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Peg
11-22-2009 7:31 AM


Still not related + New Chapter 9 problem
No because Nebo was not related by blood to Neb, so for Nebo to take the throne, he would have to marry a decendent of the throne. That one is suggested to be Nitorcis...an earlier wife of Neb (I) is also named Nitocris and therefore could easily be a daughter of her.
You have produced 0 evidence that this is the case. It sounds nice, but you are essentially taking the word of a 5th century writer for even the connection to Nitocris to begin with and just your say-so that Nebo needed to marry a blood relative.
Even IF it was true it does not refute my point that at best Bel would have been a step-son of Nitocris. He was the murder of what would have been Nitocris's own son who was already heir and had taken rule from his father.
So in order to get your story right, we have to have Bel killing Nitocris' son who is CURRENTLY king, have her marry Nebo who plotted her sons murder in order to give her son's murders legitimacy on the throne. All so Bel can be kind-of related to Neb and not even by blood. All just to make sure that poor Daniel would not be wrong on this point.
But besides this, the evidence suggests that ancient people viewed grandsons and greatgrandsons as 'sons' of the original ruler.
And you have no evidence that that is what Daniel was doing. Bel and Nebo were not pious successors of Neb. They were ursurpers who KILLED the bloodline of Neb and yet you have Bel calling Neb "daddy".
Or there is the much simpler explanation which is that Daniel was wrong.
Daniel says at 9:1 "In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus of the seed of the Medes, who had been made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans"
He doest say that Darius will be the one to overthrow Babylon...he says that Darius was put in charge of Babyblon.
Oh but Peg why are you ignoring Daniel 5?
30 That very night Belshazzar, king of the Chaldeans, was slain. 31 And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old.
And that just brings up another innaccuracy, the REAL Darius was not the son of Ahasuerus (Xerxes)! The REAL Darius was his father! (at least)
Here is the lineage of Persian kings:
Cyrus
Cambyses (son of Cyrus)
Smerdis (son of Cyrus)
Darius I (brother-in-law of Smerdis)
Xerxes I (son of Darius I)
Artaxerxes I (son of Xerxes I)
Xerxes II (son of Artaxerxes)
Sogdianus (half-brother of Xerxes II)
Darius II (half-brother of Xerxes II)
Artaxerxes II (son of Darius II)
List of kings of Babylon - Wikipedia
Now Ahusuerus translates directly into Xerxes but there is evidence from Esther of translating Ahuseurus into Artaxerxes. (Ahasuerus - Wikipedia).
Either way and for ANY translation of Ahasuerus with various Darious, Xerxes, or Artaxerxes; Darius (I or II) was a father of Xerxes (I or II) or a grandpa of Artaxerxes (I or II). Oh yea AND none of those guys were Medes!!!!
Could you please also respond to Message 22 regarding Daniel getting the exile wrong.


Lets add the chapter 9:1 problems in...
Summary of 6th century inaccuracies so far:
Chapter 1
  • Daniel is unaware of the dating of the events culminating in his own exile. Message 22
...
Chapter 5
  • Daniel incorrectly identifies Bel as Neb's son. Message 5
  • Similarly, he misidentifies Neb as Bel's father. Message 5
  • Daniel incorrectly refers to the conqueror of Babylon as "Darius the Mede". Darius was a successor to the REAL conqueror Cyrus and came into power likely after Daniel's death. He also was a Persian, not a Mede. Message 18
...
Chapter 9
  • Darius was not the son of Ahasuerus, he was either his dad or grandpa.
  • Ahasuerus (Xerxes) was once again Persian, not a Mede.
Edited by Jazzns, : Clarified Darius I as in-law of Cyrus
Edited by Jazzns, : The formatting of my posts keeps getting screwed up. ANyone else seeing this?

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Peg, posted 11-22-2009 7:31 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Peg, posted 11-25-2009 6:47 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 41 of 83 (536486)
11-23-2009 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Peg
11-22-2009 7:50 AM


Why should we care about Josephus?
However, did you read what Josephus said about the timing of the books of the hebrew scriptures?
...
now Artaxerxes I Longimanus ruled from 465*424 BCE...this means that all these books, according to Josephus, were already considered to be the holy books of the jewish faith.
besides this, he adds that no books have been added or taken away from them.
So the Torah was not the only books cannonized early on...the prophets and the other books were also in there...22 in total according to Josephus.
Explain to me why we should regard as evidence the words of a Jewish apologist who was writing 500 years later?
And he doesn't even list the books! You have to assume that he is combining them in order to get your correct count!

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Peg, posted 11-22-2009 7:50 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Peg, posted 11-25-2009 7:04 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 42 of 83 (536523)
11-23-2009 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Peg
11-23-2009 5:41 AM


Dates matter...
But the greatest evidence that the septuagint contained more then just the torah, comes from the dead sea scrolls. Fragments of the septuagint from all 12 books of the prophets have been found in them dating back to 50BCE.
Which doesn't help you because that is long after the proposed late origination and even later than when you are proposing that these books were canon.
Can you not see exactly why this does not help you support an early date?

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Peg, posted 11-23-2009 5:41 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Peg, posted 11-25-2009 7:18 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 43 of 83 (536526)
11-23-2009 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by PaulK
11-23-2009 7:09 AM


This point needs to be conceeded by Peg
It is your assumption - without evidence - that the original translation in the 3rd Century BC included Daniel.
Right! I was thinking that I was pointing out something too obvious and that I might have missed something. But, no, this just a totally rediculous hail mary here by Peg.
Isn't it true that we have exactly zero copies of the prophets pre-DSS? I am trying to search around but can't quite pin the answer to that question down.
Update:
Just needed to use the word 'manuscript' in my search. Wiki has an entry:
Biblical manuscript - Wikipedia
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by PaulK, posted 11-23-2009 7:09 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 61 of 83 (536837)
11-25-2009 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Peg
11-25-2009 6:47 AM


Bel and Darius issues
the evidence is that Nabonidus was ruling Babylon in a legal manner. If he held no claim to the throne, then how could he have taken rulership? The only way a non-blood relation could legally take the throne, was if he was married to a blood relation.
Again only by your say-so. Nabo was a ursurper and there is some evidence that he had support among the noble class. There has been no basis presented in this thread other than your wishing it so that Nabo needed to be married to anybody.
You seem to be assuming that Neb only had 1 daughter, why is that?
Because other daughters are totally and utterly irrelevant because we only have a minor, late dated reference to Nabo even being associated with Netocris at all. We have less evidence than that, exactly 0 evidence to be precise, that Nabo was married to other daughters of Neb.
Neriglissar was the son-in-law of Nebuchadrezzar II. If he was a son-in-law it meant that he was married to one of Nebs daughters. And as a son in law, he was not a blood relation, yet he could rule the throne.
Well yea! He was the husband of a princess who killed the existing king. His clame to the throne was by the end of a sword. Why is this so much in dispute? This seems obvious.
You seem to think that Nabo could not have been married to one of Nebs daughters. And yet we know that Neriglissar was married to one and becaues of that he was able to legally rule.
I have no opinion if Nabo was married to one of Nebs daughters other than that we have zero evidence that he was and therefore zero reason to claim that Bel was related to Neb other than by theological fiat. We have absolutly nothing but your say-so that Neriglissar and/or Nabo had any kind of marriage requirement to rule, it certainly was probably at least convienet for Neriglissar. We know he came to power because the Babylonians were not too pleased with Amel-Marduk so he quite likely had social support and was in a position to take over because of his wife. But that does not mean those same circumstances were necessary for Nabo and no evidence has been offered in this thread that that was the case.
Neriglissar was not of Nebs bloodline. He was a 'son-in-law' this means he was married to one of nebs daughers. This also makes his son, Labashi-Marduk, a non blood relative, yes?
No obviously Labashi-Marduk was Neb's grandson through Nitocris. And when Bel killed him it is evidence that Bel was in fact born before any alleged association between Nebo and Nitocris making the best case for Bel's relationship to Nitocris a 'step-son'. So you are in fact claiming that Bel, the person who terminated Neb's bloodline by the sword, is calling Neb his father by reagent tradition.....with no evidence.
I dont see any problem with this. Daniel was writing an account after it happend and described the events. Bel died in one night and the kingdom was then ruled by Darius...whats incorrect about that?
What is incorrect is that it is suggestive that Darius the Mede recieved the kingdom "that very night". Moreover, it was Cyrus who took over first not Darius the Mede. Last, "Darius the Mede" never existed as he is described by Daniel or at least there is zero external evidence that any such person ever was the king of Babylon in a way that verifies Daniel.
That kings list you've provided is for the Persians...the Darius Daniel is mentioning is not a Persian....he is a Mede.
So your just inventing some magical and non-evidenced Darius that was the king of Babylon in between Nabo and Cyrus? Moreover we have in that very reference a connection between Darius as the son of a PERSIAN king. Its a totally wrong reference, but it is a reference. So the Darius of Daniel is called a Mede, associated as the son of a Persian, and we know that there existed a pair of REAL Darius that WERE kings of Babylon that WERE related to Xerxes just not the way Daniel says they are.
But you would rather us believe that Daniel is correct and that we should upend all the other evidence that we have in favor of a "Darius the Mede" whos only purpose it seems would be as a theological shim to make sure that Daniel was not in error.
Again, Daniel is not wrong.
Because you are refering to a phantasm.
I will reply to your basic inaccuracies in a new post, this one is getting too long.
It would be nice to keep a seperate sub-thread for each dispute. If you wanted to split out the Bel and Darius issues into seperate replies subsequently that might also be a good idea.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Peg, posted 11-25-2009 6:47 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Peg, posted 11-26-2009 5:28 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 62 of 83 (536846)
11-25-2009 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Peg
11-25-2009 7:04 AM


Re: Why should we care about Josephus?
If he wrote in the first century CE that "No books have been added to the sacred writings since the days of Artaxerxes" then this is fairly good evidence that the book of Daniel was already among the sacred writings and that "since the days of Artaxerxes" no new books had been added.
Actually no it is not very good evidence at all. IN fact it is the worst possible evidence you can imagine. Josephus was an apologist. Josephus was in no position to know anything about 400BC and it is evident that he has theological reasons to believe that the scriptures are untainted by time. I will point out again that the time difference between Artaxerxes and Josephus is nearly half a millenia. Josephus is a horrible source to make this kind of claim.
And think about it....there were many books that were written that never made it into the bible canon...the Apocrypha for instance. Ask why the jews did not make those books a part of the sacred writings.
A whole bunch DID think they were sacred writings at various times or else we would not have them today! Copying text was a pretty big deal, usually only done by the priestly classes anyway, so if something in fact survives to this day it is pretty good evidence that it was regarded at least somewhat. We know that there were debates among the Hebrews about what was scripture and what was not. It just so happens that most of the textual traditions were controlled by priests and we have quite a good deal of evidence that seperate priestly traditions produced seperate and even competing texts. All this is happening during the time that you claim Daniel is regarded as scripture supposidly because the canon was closed. There just is no evidence for that Peg. I think you should seriously stick to the places in this debate where you actually have some scholarly legs to stand on. I have just about the same reason to take Josephus seriously about the existence of Daniel in the time of Artaxerxes as I do to take L. Ron Hubbard seriously about the existence of Xenu.
the scribes did combine them
The scribes seemingly did a lot of crazy things. But that still is not evidence that he is refering to the canon that we know AND I will continue to point out that he does not in fact list the books.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Peg, posted 11-25-2009 7:04 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Peg, posted 11-26-2009 5:55 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 63 of 83 (536855)
11-25-2009 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Peg
11-25-2009 7:18 AM


LXX in the DSS
I was showing Iblis that the Greek Septuagint translation did not only contain the Torah (Gen,Ex,Deut,Num,Lev) as he suggests.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that it did only contain those. We are all just pointing out that it did not contain all of the current books all at once, that the first thing to be canonized was the TOrah. The second grouping of books to be somewhat canonized were the prophets EXCLUDING Daniel. YOu still have yet to explain that. Why did the Hebrews put in Isaiah and Ezekiel but leave out Daniel in the Prophets with capitol P?
The fragments of Greek Septuagint found among the dead sea scrolls prove that there were other books (the 12 prophets) that had also been translated.
I can't fathom why you would bring up the DSS with respect to the Septuagint tradition when not only is it the least represented amongst the traditions at Qumran, not only is Daniel not represented in the Septuagint tradition at all, Daniel is not even represented in Greek!!!
Even more damning for Daniel, is that in a number of instances in the DSS it is represented in apocryphal form.
The absolute earliest copies of Daniel that we have are totally inconsistent with your claim of canonization under Persian rule.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Peg, posted 11-25-2009 7:18 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Peg, posted 11-26-2009 6:40 AM Jazzns has replied

  
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