The Argument from Design: Design for who?

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PaulK:
Actually producing that case for design by finding examples of CSI in biology, however, seems to be beyond him. Or any other member of the ID community.

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That is exactly what Meyers and Behe have done. You can add Kenyon and Minnich to those two.

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"...the most habitable place in the solar system yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them." from "The Privileged Planet"

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Zhimbo:
However it's been noted that there are many differences between human artifacts and living things (for example, living things are self-reproducing) that render the inference as suspect.

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Reproduction (asexual and sexual) needs to be explained. Reproduction (asexual) is also seen as being IC.added url in edit Peering into Darwin's Black Box:
The cell divsion processes required for bacterial life

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Zhimbo:
The design of an organism, however, serves to benefit the organism itself, so invoking another is an unnecessary additional assumption.

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I would say the design of biological organisms benefits the population and not just the individual organism.This message has been edited by ID man, 09-30-2004 10:58 AM

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"...the most habitable place in the solar system yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them." from "The Privileged Planet"

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PaulK:
Please show the relevant work where any of the four people you name has successfully identified CSI as defined by Dembski in biology.

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This isn't one of the four but it is relevant: Odds against lifeThen we have Meyer's DNA and the Origin of Life: Information, Specification, and Explanation, pages 223-285 in Darwinism, Design and Public Education

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PaulK:
I note in advance that identifying a structure as IC is inadequate - I want to see the full probability calculations covering all relevant possibilities, as required by Dembski.

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I note that you still can't show that nature acting alone can do the things you want us to believe it can. Also just becasuse you say that identifying something as IC is inadequate means nothing to me.

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"...the most habitable place in the solar system yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them." from "The Privileged Planet"

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PaulK:
Your link is not relevant since it does not make the relevant calculations asked for. Moreover you offer no details of the argument from the other paper - and since your first example is clearly not what was requested there is no reason why I should believe the other claim.

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Nothing would satisfy you. From the link: Details from the other paper? Look it up. All full bibliography was given.

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PaulK:
And finally what is it with your continued lying about "double standards" ?

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It is a fact, not a lie. But I can see why you nwould confuse the two.

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PaulK:
You seem barely able to write a post without falsely accusing someone of this.

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Reality is not a false accusation. I can see why you would want to confuse the two.When you ask for IDists to present some form of evidence that you cannot provide, that is a double-standard. That is all I see on this discussion board.

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"...the most habitable place in the solar system yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them." from "The Privileged Planet"

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How do we know that random mutations and NS were responsible? The reality is that we don't know we inherited the jaw bone from any reptiles.
MrHambre:
In that case, aren't hands and antennae and small ear bones all impressive testimony to the design capability of the Darwinian mechanism?Please provide the evidence that shows RM & NS were responsible for these structures. I will bet you that you cannot.Can you even provide the evidence that the different sizes of the beaks of the finch are the result of random mutations?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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MrHambre:
So have you even read Behe? He has no trouble acknowledging common descent or that the Darwinian mechanism is responsible for certain evolutionary changes.

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Yes I have read Behe and he never says what changes those were.

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MrHambre:
So I'd say the High Priest of ID is most certainly saying that we can attribute finch beaks to RMNS.

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Behe is not a priest and you nor he has never given any evidence of what RM & NS can do, including the beaks of the finch.Do you have the evidence for the varying beaks being caused by RM & NS or not? Do you even know the genetic differences involved?Ya see this is all part of the double-standards I am talking about. You guys ask for evidence but can't provide any for your faith.

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"...the most habitable place in the solar system yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them." from "The Privileged Planet"

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Zhimbo:
Can you give an example where design benefits the population but NOT the organism? (Actually, more accurately, the organism's genes, but I don't know if we need to get that picky yet.)

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That is not what I posted. Of course it benefits the organism, but it also benefits the population. A population would mean that others benefit also.

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"...the most habitable place in the solar system yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them." from "The Privileged Planet"

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Zhimbo:
So, you're saying that it is a general principle of biological design that it benefits "the population"?

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Not exactly but by benefitting one or a few organisms that in turn can benefit the population.

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Zhimbo:
Does the eye benefit the "population"?

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The eye isn't any good without a complete vision system. However if one or a few members of a population could see they could help the others find food or shelter. Then they could pass on their beneficial traits.

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Zhimbo:
Does blod clotting?

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Yes blood clotting benefits any organism or population that can bleed. Do I need to explain why?

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Zhimbo:
Does the bacterial flagellum?

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If food doesn't come to you, you have to go to it. So yes the bac flag benefits the organism and the population.All of these benefit the population because of heredity.

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"...the most habitable place in the solar system yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them." from "The Privileged Planet"

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PaulK:
Moroever if your accusation of double standards is not a lie you should be able to reference the posts where:
a) I claimed that a specific piece of work had been done
b) I refused to produce an example.

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If you are an evolutionist then the claim that metazoans can evolve from non-metazoans has not been substantiated. Neither has the claim that the vision system, nervous system, or respiratory system evolved. Then there is the bacterial flagellum, blood clotting cascade etc. As a matter of fact non of the grandiose claims made by evolutionists (some mentioned above) have been substantiated yet in public schools they are being taught that these did in fact evolve via naturalistic, ie nature acting alone, mechanisms, ie RM & NS.So the question is are you an evolutionist?

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"...the most habitable place in the solar system yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them." from "The Privileged Planet"

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MrHambre:
When he's provided with Pub Med articles on such research (or would Jonathan Weiner's Beak of the Finch suffice? Didn't think so), will he:

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Well I am not the Pope but when was I provided with any pub med articles on such research on the beak of the finch? Why didn't you provide a link? What goalposts did I move? Just because you don't understand ID, obvious, doesn't mean the goalposts are moving.3) Minor evolutionary changes are irrelevant to how birds came about in the first place.
It wouldn't bother me one bit if RM & NS can account for minor changes. I believe that sickle-cell anemia to be such a case for RM & NS. It is either RM & NS accounted for SCA or RM & NS corrupted the program that would allow for that change to be non-detrimental. Either way I understand that RM and NS have some qualities. Just not all the qualities you say they have.

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"...the most habitable place in the solar system yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them." from "The Privileged Planet"

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PaulK:
Thank you for admitting that you do not have an example where I claimed a piece of work had been done and then produced an example.

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I never made such an admission. Your refusal to look at the work I cited is typical of willful ignorance.

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PaulK:
Therefore we have now established that your claim of "double standards" was indeed a lie.

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You have established that you can twist and spin with the best of them.

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"...the most habitable place in the solar system yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them." from "The Privileged Planet"

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holmes:
IDman, you are making an error. The claim from evolutionary theory is NOT that they did some specific research which proves something... and then it turns out they did not do the research.

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You miss the point. Evolutionists tell us that metazoans evolved from some non-metazoan population. They can't substantiate that claim with evidence. They also make other claim s that cannot and have not been substantuated. Then when told that evidence for a designer is in the design, ie the structures we see under the microscope, they say that isn't enough.

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holmes:
I am a scientist that believes evolutionary theory currently represents the best model for species diversity.

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I was asking PaulK. However that species can diversify does not explain how that species came about in the first place. IOW the theory of BS starts out with the complexity that needs explaining.

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"...the most habitable place in the solar system yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them." from "The Privileged Planet"

PaulK's refusal to answer this post is his admittance that double-standards indeed do exist. Thanks Paul

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"...the most habitable place in the solar system yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them." from "The Privileged Planet"