Define literal vs non-literal.

Hi Peg.Going on vacation for a few days after today. So you do not get your usual quick response from me....be patient.Now, lets get down to business.hERICtic writes:
Unless I misspoke, I stated that any time evening and morning are used, it refers to a day was we know it. I'm not sure how your "12" hour reference helps your case whatsover. Its even less time than what I claim. Its would still be 6 increments of daylight as per Genesis when the world was created. But as I have shown you, "day" can mean daylight or 24 hours. Peg, if it only means 12 hours, then its even less time for you. I'm not sure why you keep bringing up this 12 hours scenario. Your point of view is that its billons of years. But just to clarify, Genesis does NOT say evening to morning. It states there WAS evening, which is the beginning of the darkness, and there WAS morning, the beginning of light-first day. Thats 24 hours. Peg, you have not given any evidence whatsover to the contrary. You believe its billions of years for one reason only, the evidence is too overwhelming to suggest otherwise. If science tomorrow said they were incorrect and the earth was created within a week, you'd jump all over how miraculous Genesis is!I on the other hand, have given you plenty of evidence.1) The description fits a day. Evening and morning.
2) Every time in scripture evening and morning are used, it refers to a 24 hour period.
3) Every time a number precedes "yom", it refers to a 24 hour period.
4) There are words in Hebrew that denote long periods of time.
5) There isnt any indication its a long period of time.
6) Each day, states evening and morning. If a day is billions of years, you'd have billions of years of darkness, followed by billions of years of light and so on. Do you really think the authors believed that animals and plants lived in darkness for millions of years?
7) Exodus twice states that the earth was created in six days.
8) I'm never wrong. hERICtic writes:
Only to you. You need it to be. The point is EVERY time evening and morning are mentioned, it refers to a day as we know it. The story gives no implication how long Adam was without Eve. He lived for 960 years. It could have been years. It could only have been a few animals also.hERICtic writes:
If the days were billions of years, then Adam and Eve were created at the END of creation. Scripture states the beginning.This contradicts the words of Jesus:"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female" (Mark 10:6). No Peg, you cant. The word mankind is not present.More evidence: Mark 13:19
19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.Notice it states the beginning of creation. This tribulation occured on the sixth day. If Genesis refers to billions of years, it would be the END of creation. If it refers to 24 hour days, it most certainly is the beginning of creation.Luke 11:50—51 (NKJV)
50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this.Jesus places Abel near the beginning of creation.Jesus tells you Peg to follow the words of Moses. According to Jesus, Moses wrote Exodus. Exodus clearly states, as I have said earlier, the earth was created in six days. If you're going to use the belief that it can be any amount of time, then you're obviously admitting the very words of Moses that Jesus tells you to trust are unclear.

Hold on a second. It clearly states the tribulation occured at the BEGINNING of creation. How is the word creation used in context? To refer to "history", as in history of the world. Only a 24 hour literal day makes sense if it refers to history. If we use Pegs beliefs, it would be at the very end of history, not the beginning.Romans 8:19-23 (English Standard Version)
19For the creation waits with eager longing for(A) the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation(B) was subjected to futility, not willingly, but(C) because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that(D) the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that(E) the whole creation(F) has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have(G) the firstfruits of the Spirit,(H) groan inwardly as(I) we wait eagerly for adoption as sons,(J) the redemption of our bodies.Obviously creation does not mean just those six days, but from the very beginning to now.

Moses does NOT call the creation 1 day, he calls it "the day". There is a huge difference.I have already told you, every single time evening/morning are used in scripture, it refers to a single 24 hour day.Anytime a number precedes YOM, it refers to a 24 hour day.You have provided no evidence that the days in Genesis refer to long periods of time.In fact, I have already told you numerous times there were words for long periods of time. None are used.The mere fact its a description of a 24 hour day shoudl be a huge indication of what time frame the author is refering to.Its only bc science has determined that its billons of years do you take this stance.I have also give you this: Mark 10:6 (NKJV)
6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’This only works if its a literal 24 hour day, not billions of years.Luke 11:50—51 (NKJV)
50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of thisAbel is placed near the beginning of the creation of the world. Not billions of years later.Exodus twice states the world was created in six days.

hERICtic writes:
I have already told you, every single time evening/morning are used in scripture, it refers to a single 24 hour day. This is scary now Peg. First, one does not have to do with the other. Second, ignoring this issue does not make it go away. The fact is EVERY time evening and morning are mentioned in scripture, it refers to a 24 hour day. Third, Genesis does NOT (for at least the sixth time now) state morning TO evening. It stats morning AND evening. A perfect description of a day.hERICtic writes:
You have provided no evidence that the days in Genesis refer to long periods of time. You're still doing it. You are ignoring what everyone is telling you. We are debating the first 6 days. You have offered no evidence that the authors were refering to long periods of time. In fact, Genesis does not say evening and morning for day 7. Also, the Bible makes no mention how long the seventh day is. Please show this scripture which states the seventh day is not a 24 hour day. LMAO! Peg, you havent given one single scripture which shows the days in Genesis are long days. None at all. You've given defintions of how YOM can mean long periods of time, but not by using Genesis. You continually ignore so many key points its getting ridiculous now.Again, EVENING and MORNING, every single time in scripture are used to denote a 24 hour day.Every time a number precedes YOM, it refers to a 24 hour day.Both are two crucial, key points which you ignore.The description in Genesis is exactly how one would describe a 24 hour day. Evening and morning. This is not how one would describe billions of years.hERICtic writes:
In fact, I have already told you numerous times there were words for long periods of time. None are used. Peg, at times it really does seem like you pretend to not "get" what others are saying. Yes, YOM can mean long periods of time. But it also means 24 hours. The authors could have chosen words that would show long periods of time, in which there would not be any debate. You are the one ignoring scripture, not me.To prove this: EVERY TIME evening and morning are used, its 24 hours. EVERY TIME a number precedes YOM, it refers to 24 hours. The description given, morning and evening describes perfectly 24 hours.The ONLY reason you are debating this is due to science. No other reason. We both know this. We would not be having this discussion if the evidence was not overwhelming.You have provided NO evidence at all that the first six days are not 24 hours. None. Repeating over and over that YOM also means long periods of time is not evidence that its being used in that context.hERICtic writes:
I have also give you this: Mark 10:6 (NKJV)
6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’This only works if its a literal 24 hour day, not billions of years. No, you added a word before creation that is not there. I really cannot believe you just said that. We are ALL the creation according to scripture. Creation means everything.Jesus points out man were there since the beginning of creation. If its long periods of time, Adam was created at the END of creation. If it refers to days, its the beginning. Adam and Eve were the last to be created. Obviously Jesus is not refering to when they were created per day, since he would be wrong then. Cant have that according to apologists. So then Jesus could only be refering creation overall. In that context, mankind was created in the beginning, which is day 6 compared to the thousands of days that followed.hERICtic writes:
Luke 11:50—51 (NKJV)
50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of thisAbel is placed near the beginning of the creation of the world. Not billions of years later. Wrong Peg. There are many definitions of kosmos. In this context the FOUNDATION of the world, refers to the earth. You're picking and choosing which definition to use while ignoring the context of what is being stated.Bottom line, which you keep ignoring on purpose:When evening and morning are used, EVERY time it refers to a 24 hour day.When a number precedes the word YOM, EVERY time if refers to a 24 hour day.

I disagree. "Kosmos" also means planet.the circle of the earth, the earth (Linked Word)There are many words to desribe people, few to describe planet. Why use one of the words that could also describe a planet? So you're saying it should read as the beginning of the inhabitants instead of the beginning of the planet?I will admit though, its possible you could be correct. Not enough evidence exists based upon the verse I gave to definently show it refers to the beginning of creation.

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I have already told you, every single time evening/morning are used in scripture, it refers to a single 24 hour day.
Anytime a number precedes YOM, it refers to a 24 hour day.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So your rebuttel in the entire Bible is ONE verse? Lets take a look at it.I made two points: Anytime evening AND morning are used together it refers to a 24 hour day.Anytime a number precedes YOM, it refers to a 24 hour day.5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake [a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttimea day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light.Not sure where you are going with this, it refers to a single day. I find it amazing you state flat out that I am lying, then admit it MAY be saying a long period of time. The context implies a day will arrive....not a long period of time.quote:
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I have also give you this: Mark 10:6 (NKJV)
6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’
This only works if its a literal 24 hour day, not billions of years.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It makes perfect sense. There isnt anything nonsensical about it. If it read "From the beginning god made them male and female"...I could understand your point of view. But it states "from the beginning of creation".

I disagree. It you read the context, it refers to a 24 hour day, in reference to verse 7. I do agree that elsewhere, day refers to a long period of time.1Behold,(A) a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst."Day" could mean the first day or a long period of time I suppose.2For(B) I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and(C) the city shall be taken(D) and the houses plundered(E) and the women raped.(F) Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3(G) Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle."Day" could mean 24 hours or long period of time.4(H) On that day his feet shall stand(I) on(J) the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and(K) the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.On that day-could easily mean a long period of time.5And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from(L) the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.6(M) On that day(N) there shall be no light, cold, or frost.[a] 7(O) And there shall be a unique[b] day,(P) which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but(Q) at evening time there shall be light.When this "day" arrives, it describes when the lord shall arrive. That most certainly refers to a 24 hour day, the first day.8(R) On that day(S) living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to(T) the eastern sea[c] and half of them to(U) the western sea.[d] It shall continue in summer as in winter."This day" could refer back to the first day, 24 hour day, or a long period of time.But the crux of my entire argument is that when evening AND mornig are used, its always a 24 hour day. Nowhere does this verse state "morning". I am comparing what Genesis states (evening and morning) to where that terminology is used elsewhere in scripture.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.Edited by hERICtic, : Simple grammatical and other dumb mistakes!

KB,I find it hysterical, in your site you gave, it states:

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"However, Luther and Calvin did not have the means of modern science at their disposal. At the time, geocentricity was still accepted!"

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In other words, bc science has shown the universe/earth to be billions of years old.......we cannot accept what scripture actually states, we need it to fit science. Your author clearly says the reason it was accepted to be 6 literal days is bc the science was unknown.I have stated this to Peg since we started this debate: It was quite recent that it means long periods of time in Genesis. Why? Bc the evidence is so overwhelming that it cannot mean a 6 day creation period. So the Bible has to change to fit science.Its absurd to state it refers to long periods of time. Just the description itself, evening and morning, one day clearly shows a 24 hour period.Exodus twice states the earth was created in 6 days.Neither Genesis nor Exodus give any indication it was long periods of time.Again I will state EVERY time evening and morning are used with YOM, it refers to a 24 hour day.EVERY time a number precedes YOM, it refers to a 24 hour day.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

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Again I will state EVERY time evening and morning are used with YOM, it refers to a 24 hour day.
EVERY time a number precedes YOM, it refers to a 24 hour day.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You have yet to show a statement I have made is false yet. You have given ONE verse which does not even mention evening and morning. This is known as a strawman.Second:And there was evening, and there was morningthe first day.Number precedes YOM. I could give you more scripture where a number precedes YOM. So my statement is not false.But some translations do have it as "day one".Would it have been more clear if I stated anytime a number is used with YOM? If that is the case, EVERY time its used in that respect, it refers to a 24 hour period.

I know YOM is Hebrew. It means "day". I'm not sure what you are trying to imply here.I am going by Biblegateway.com Some translations have it day one, some have it the first day. Regardless of how it its translated, when a number is used with day, it always refers to a 24 hour period. You are absolutely correct. I ,at times, type too fast and do not explain myself very well. I have limited time. Sorry if I am unclear. I believe there was a post that I edited four times to you bc each time I read it, it was very confusing, so I wasted more time correcting it! LOL. My apologies for that.Although I am not sure why you are confused by my mention of evening and morning. I said anytime evening/morning or evening and morning are used with YOM, it refers to a 24 hour day. It appears that in both instance I am saying when YOM is used with both words-evening and morning, it refers to 24 hours. Im not sure why you see a difference. I have based my statement of looking up the words in Biblegateway.com, finding all verses which use evening and morning, with day and using LinkeWordProject for the translation. I also have been to quite a few Christian websites which have stated this is the case. I used YEC and OEC websites. The YEC websites make the claim quite often. Not one OEC website contradicted those claims. Each time, with the OEC sites, they would use YOM, never was it used with a number. Many examples were given as to how YOM was used, but never was it used in conjuction with evening and morning or a number. Its obvious you know more about translations than I do. You also seem to have many more resources. If it exists such scripture and you have these outlets to find more information than I have stated, please provide the evidence to contradict me.I have made my claim quite a few times, yet not once have you actually provided anything to counter my claims.Find me an instance where YOM is used with morning and evening to refer to a long period of time.Find me an instance where YOM is used with a number to refer to a long period of time.Thanks.

hERICtic writes:
I know YOM is Hebrew. It means "day". I'm not sure what you are trying to imply here. Perhaps I may have missed it, but I have yet to see a definition of YOM to mean light. It can mean the period of day in which there is light. YOM from my undersanding means "day", but "day' can be broken down into many definitions, such as long periods of time, but all including a time, which includes days.Seasons, age, year, etc. Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

Peg, my question that I cannot find YOM to mean "light"- I didnt mean by scripture. I meant by definition. In other words, I have looked up YOM, no definition I have found shows it to mean "light".You're missing the point by the way regarding YOM. Many words have multiple meanings. But CONTEXT defines the word.The context of the story is that its a 24 hour day. Evening and morning, day one. Evening and morning, day two. This is exactly how one would describe a 24 hour day. Not billions of years.Exodus also speaks of a 6 day creation. Twice.There are words to describe long periods of time. None are used in either instance.There is only one reason you are saying its a long period of time and one reason only. The evidence against a 6 day creation is too overwhelming. OEC is a modern belief. The prevailing belief before science stepped in was a literal reading, 6 days. We both know, if science states tomorrow that all their evidence was wrong, that indeed the earth was created in 6 days, you'd back down in one second from your silly assertion it means billions of years. In fact, if we had this debate 200 years ago and I took the stance that it really means billions of years, you'd think I was crazy. If I used all of your arguments, nothing would convince you. Why? Bc its quite clear in Genesis that its a literal 6 days.I have said many times also, whenever evening and morning are used together it refers to a 24 hour day.I have said many times also, whenever a number is used with YOM, it refers to a 24 hour day.You continually ignore this.

hERICtic writes:
I have said many times also, whenever evening and morning are used together it refers to a 24 hour day. No he did not. The verse he showed did NOT have the word evening and morning in it. Also the verse in question seems to refer to a 24 hour day.5And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from(L) the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.6(M) On that day(N) there shall be no light, cold, or frost.[a] 7(O) And there shall be a unique[b] day,(P) which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but(Q) at evening time there shall be light.On "that day" which is a "unique day" is the start of when the Lord will come. 24 hour day.Peg, if science tomorrow said the word was created in six days, would you still argue that the Bible says billions of years?Do you think morning and evening, day one is an apt description of the world being created in one day? Or do you think its a better description of billions of years?

PD,In your last post, you used Strongs to find the definition of "yom".I tried navigating the site yet am unable to find where you can input an English word and get the Hebrew definition or vice versa as you had done.In other words, when I click on Strongs, I get this:3116 3117. yom 3118 >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------day
Original Word:
Transliteration: yom
Phonetic Spelling: (yome)
Short Definition: ageWord Origin
a prim. root
Definition
day
NASB Word Usage
afternoon* (1), age (8), age* (1), all (1), always* (14), amount* (2), battle (1), birthday* (1), Chronicles* (38), completely* (1), continually* (14), course* (1), daily (22), daily the days (1), day (1115), day of the days (1), day that the period (1), day's (6), day's every day (1), daylight* (1), days (635), days on the day (1), days to day (1), days you shall daily (1), days ago (1), days' (11), each (1), each day (4), entire (2), eternity (1), evening* (1), ever in your life* (1), every day (2), fate (1), first (5), forever* (11), forevermore* (1), full (5), full year (1), future* (1), holiday* (3), later* (2), length (1), life (12), life* (1), lifetime (2), lifetime* (1), live (1), long (2), long as i live (1), long* (11), midday* (1), now (5), older* (1), once (2), period (3), perpetually* (2), present (1), recently (1), reigns (1), ripe* (1), short-lived* (1), so long* (1), some time (1), survived* (2), time (45), time* (1), times* (2), today (172), today* (1), usual (1), very old* (1), when (10), when the days (1), whenever (1), while (3), whole (2), year (10), yearly (5), years (13), yesterday* (1).I'm just not sure how you got to that page of the site.Thanks.

Find me an instance where YOM is used with a number to refer to a long period of time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Zech 14:7 does not refer to a long period of time. Second, it does not contain "evening or morning". You're making a strawman here. About time you got to this one! But you're misunderstanding it. Its an idiom alright, but the the days represents a 24 hour period for each. If "day" meant a long period of time, it would contradict the prophecy.In other words, a comparison is being made between how long gods anger was to be/restorie Israel and a "day". The prophecy collapses if if "day" meant anything other than a 24 hour day.PS 18:2 The LORD is my rock... This is an idiom. God is not really a "rock', but unless you're using the terminlogy of what a rock really is, the verse makes no sense.Bottom line, "day" still means 24 hours.