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Author Topic:   Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2
Philip
Member (Idle past 4751 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 28 of 607 (560125)
05-13-2010 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by purpledawn
05-13-2010 8:04 AM


Re: Covenant Creation
+1
(Hope I'm not trolling here ...)
"Evening and morning" seem critical event-series ... and respected by the law of Moses (and some Jewish sects today) ... they are "holy" "feasts" and, I suppose, invoke 'heavily' upon the 6 days of 'creation'. (I say 'creation' because 'designing', 'forming', 'lighting', 'clock-devices', etc. also took place during the 6 'days' ('evenings and mornings').
But "evening and morning" seem scripturally vague, IMHO ... as human minds cannot really comprehend 'time', 'light', 'design'. "Evening and morning" semantics themselves oft evolve scripturally (not the ToE).
Diurnal clocks seem non-existent until the 4th day:
Likewise: a "month" in the closing 22nd chapter of the book of Revelation 'requires' no "sun" nor "night":
Rev 22:2-5 ... yielded her fruit every month: ... And there shall be no night there ... neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light ...
In sum (IOWs):
1) Creation-design events seem utterly open to wide viewpoints ... but they seem difficult (perhaps impossible) to measure via diurnal clocks and radiometric dating.
2) Genesis 1-2 are open to wide viewpoints ... and may retain scriptural validity/integrity.
3) Moses, Daniel, Ezekial, etc., and, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John seem to have had different viewpoints on "evening and morning" ... even the hours of our Lord's crucifiction, death, burial, and resurrection: "3 days/nights", "3rd day", etc.
4) Many "evening-morning" models scientifically 'fit' your/my puny "evening and morning" schemes, IIRC.
... Its just that the obsolete clocks we currently employ may require replacements, re-booting, and/or re-calibration ... after God 'acts'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by purpledawn, posted 05-13-2010 8:04 AM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by ICANT, posted 05-13-2010 2:11 PM Philip has not replied

Philip
Member (Idle past 4751 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 32 of 607 (560217)
05-13-2010 7:49 PM


Gen 1
Slight meandering:
"Evening and morning" ... while retaining some empirical conatations can befit my/your YEC or EOC scheme(s).
Not to strawman the issue, but: To call oneself a YEC in diurnal time and an OEC in radiometric time seems non-fallacious ...
We all adhere to clocks in our puny understanding of "evening and morning". Is there really such a thing as "real time"? Just what is "real time"
The 6 days (of creation?) that followed Gen 1.1 ... certainly contain creation design terms ... at least as a child or scientist might readily discern.
Besides, time is relative to both the speed of light and God's omnipotence (and other factors)
IOWs, "evening and morning" seem to contain metaphysical and perceptual implications that are outside the Newtonian and Einsteinian realms of science.
(Off topic: Genesis 1 is one of the few chapters I've memorized ... Genesis 1 quenches my scientific thirst of origins ... but requires the whole chapter model in addition to vs 1 ... each of the 6 days explains events that answer my hardest scientific inquiries.)

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 Message 36 by ICANT, posted 05-13-2010 11:43 PM Philip has replied

Philip
Member (Idle past 4751 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 37 of 607 (560273)
05-14-2010 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by ICANT
05-13-2010 11:43 PM


Re: Gen 1
I prefer not to respond particularly to one person ... as I sort of trolled in via hope of further enlightenment from your struggles)
... created (bara)
Gen 1:21 And God created ... every living creature that moveth
(whether this 'full creation' event (on the 5th day) is an outworking of Gen 1.1, and/or a re-creation, a re-boot, (re-)callibration, and/or a clarification of Gen 1.1, etc. ... I cannot conclude dogmatically.
Allow me to concede at that.
My faith-hypotheses shift a bit. Now for neat science models that collab/parallel with the 6 days of 'design' ... there are my 'personal hypotheses' (if you will):
1) Creation of Matter and Energy == Creation of Heaven and Earth (by loose inferences) ... 1st cause ... etc. ... Gen 1.1 (I know this violates Newton's thermo)
2) The phenomenon/mystery of Light (whether created (bara) or not both science and I cannot tell, God knows). Light theories certainly co-exist with matter though. I Gen 1.1, light may have been 'latent' within the matter ... or shining from God ... or both.
3) As a podiatric physician I conclude the six days infer incremental levels of either pre-built design (from Gen 1.1) and/or a week with God (as Moses strictly observed the Sabbath-rest).
Besides time (as we perceive it) ... the firmaments (cosmic) expansion ... enzymes, plants, fish, fowl, and creeping life ... after there kinds ... on up through humanity ... require God's direct design ... either during or after the creation of Gen 1.1. No ToE can account for these creations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ICANT, posted 05-13-2010 11:43 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ICANT, posted 05-14-2010 2:05 AM Philip has not replied

Philip
Member (Idle past 4751 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 41 of 607 (560305)
05-14-2010 9:38 AM


Gen 1:21
Therefore Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3 does not explain what took place in Genesis 1:1.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I Trust my older bible(s), a major creation/design event took place on the 5th day before God rested from all the works. Even the Alexandrian bibles (many listed below) ... state not just sea monsters.
New International Version (1984)
So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
New Living Translation (2007)
So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that scurries and swarms in the water, and every sort of bird--each producing offspring of the same kind. And God saw that it was good.
English Standard Version (2001)
So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
New American Standard Bible (1995)
God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
GOD'S WORD Translation (1995)
So God created the large sea creatures, every type of creature that swims around in the water and every type of flying bird. God saw that they were good.
King James Bible
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
American King James Version
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moves, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
American Standard Version
And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that moveth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind: and God saw that it was good.
Bible in Basic English
And God made great sea-beasts, and every sort of living and moving thing with which the waters were full, and every sort of winged bird: and God saw that it was good.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And God created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, which the waters brought forth, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Darby Bible Translation
And God created the great sea monsters, and every living soul that moves with which the waters swarm, after their kind, and every winged fowl after its kind. And God saw that it was good.
English Revised Version
And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kinds, and every winged fowl after its kind: and God saw that it was good.
Webster's Bible Translation
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
World English Bible
God created the large sea creatures, and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind. God saw that it was good.
Young's Literal Translation
And God prepareth the great monsters, and every living creature that is creeping, which the waters have teemed with, after their kind, and every fowl with wing, after its kind, and God seeth that it is good.

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 Message 44 by ICANT, posted 05-14-2010 12:05 PM Philip has not replied

Philip
Member (Idle past 4751 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 48 of 607 (560373)
05-14-2010 6:23 PM


+1 to Apocolyptic/Gospel Metaphysics
--"I know from verse 2 it had become uninhabitable as it was covered with water."
Albeit the scriptures state (Ps 24); the earth was "founded upon the seas and established upon the floods" ... supporting your literalist hypotheses ... somewhat ...
But "Heaven" becomes *redefined* by 'day 2' as the firmamental expanse; Earth becomes *redefined* as "dry land" on 'day 3' (IIRC, the same Hebrew word).
Just what "Heaven and Earth" ... *were before that* (Gen 1.1) ... I won't dogmatically speculate; but there may be *apocolyptic* similarities with the "New Heaven and New Earth" (Rev 21.1).
Of course: I accept your literalist views about H2O ... covering the earth as well ... and perhaps your diurnal clocks here; but ...
I do not comprehend "evening and morning", neither "light and time", nor the space-time continuum ... especially during the alpha and omega of the creation of God. Radiometric clocks themselves would go crazy during the 2nd day's heavenly expansion(1st 2nd and 3rd heavens, I'd hypothesize (2Co 12:2).
Though, perhaps YECish concerning diurnal time, I myself refute/refuse a literalist one-size-fits-all interpretation ... of Gen 1.2. ... and other scriptures that have compound meanings and dimensions (e.g., apocolyptic, poetic, surreal, spiritual, gospel, etc.).
While God speaks as a YEC ... I am not glorified enough to understand the true science of it.
My 1st grader reads Genesis 1 without getting hyper-inquisitive (unlike me). God appears to oversimplify Genesis 1.1 for my sanity's sake: Your/my creationist schemes may contain personal viewpoints and faith-hypotheses to fill in the Gen 1.1-2 gap(s) ... that sync with the scriptures but have a personal significance.
(Well I'm rambling ... sorry)

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by ICANT, posted 05-15-2010 6:57 PM Philip has not replied

Philip
Member (Idle past 4751 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 57 of 607 (560546)
05-15-2010 10:57 PM


Gen 1.1 vs. 1.2 and Gen 1 vs. Gen 2
There are parallel seemingly opposing spiritual viewpoints and realities also with ...
Ezekiel's old vision of the Heavenly Temple vs. John's visions in Revelation
Scriptures (IMHO) seem to give dispensations and/or view-points ... all of which are true ... some are weightier today during a "dispensation of grace":
Some viewpoints may be:
1) Blue-prints (like Noah's ark and, the tabernacle, the Ezra's temple);
2) Others Mosaic and legalistic: Solomon's temple, Ezekiels temple, Herod's temple, etc.
3) Others cannot be uttered (lawfully): "Seven thunders" of John, Paul's visions of 3rd Heaven, date of Christ's 2nd return ... etc.
4) Other revelations and perspectives by individuals (whose perceptions validate and compliment opposing perceptions)
5) Even Solomon had seemingly inferior yet perfectly valid perceptions of God and man in Ecclesiastes. Such perceptions may perhaps answer to cross-burdened individuals vexed by conflicts and vanity in a cursed creation.
Also regarding: Gen 1.1 vs. 1.2 and Gen 1 vs. Gen 2 events
1) God's timeline of "evening and morning" seems very holy and pure; many events during the *tidy* intervals are good ... originating from God above.
2) Gen 2 seems (to me) a similar a narrative dispensation and/or counterview and must compliment the holy week of Gen 1's "evening and morning" reality that ends with the holy Sabbath of rest (e.g., in Christ). Gen 2 occurs on earth with Jehovah-God's equally critical viewpoints.
3) Hypothetically: Scriptural *embryonic* development (Gen 1.1 vs. 1.2 and Gen 1 vs. Gen 2) may be much more complex than any creature's embryonic development ... neither of which I am glorified enough to understand at all (though I am a scientist and physician). Scriptural development is exceedingly "fearfully and wonderfully made" (Ps 139)
4) You've noted the oppositions btw Gen 1.1 vs. 1.2 and Gen 1 vs. Gen 2 are reconcilable via Christian faith as well (gospel and/or apocalyptic?). Likewise, I struggle with these oppositions and metamorphoses.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
Psa 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Psa 139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
Psa 139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

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