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Author Topic:   The Concept of God -- Need Logic Help
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9324
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 46 of 81 (733654)
07-19-2014 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
07-19-2014 3:58 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
But He doesn't. He hides in His heaven, refusing to even show us that He exists. We put out the fires ourselves and then He punishes us for the damage.

What's God's punishment for burning a house?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 07-19-2014 3:58 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 07-20-2014 2:08 PM NoNukes has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 47 of 81 (733655)
07-19-2014 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by NoNukes
07-19-2014 5:55 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
NoNukes writes:

ringo writes:

If you deliberately wouldn't try to micromanage things like, say, putting out the fire in your neighbour's house, that would make you evil.


No, it wouldn't. You have the power of life and death over any individual insect in your back yard. I doubt you'd bother to rescue a single one of them from being stepped on.

So God thinks of us as insects? Feel the love.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by NoNukes, posted 07-19-2014 5:55 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 07-19-2014 7:12 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9324
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 48 of 81 (733656)
07-19-2014 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
07-19-2014 6:00 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
So God thinks of us as insects? Feel the love.

Not necessarily. All it takes to counter a proposition is a single counter example and I just wanted to show you that your own proposition was not a necessity. If you would like another proposition, how about this one? God gave you a perfectly good solar system in which to live and right now he is busy elsewhere with somebody whom he has given less than he has given you. So don't screw up yours.

Another possibility? God loves insects just as much as he loves you.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 07-19-2014 6:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 07-20-2014 2:16 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 49 of 81 (733677)
07-20-2014 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by NoNukes
07-19-2014 5:55 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
quote:

The picture of omnipotence I am throwing out the window is a silly childish one. I don't care how much power you want to specify is it possible for God to create a rock he cannot lift, to create an invisible, opaque object, or to create a universe where all beings have free will, yet God dictates every one of their daily actions. Those things are not conundrums; they are just down right silly.

Unofortunately one of those is not like the others. In fact given a truly omnipotent and omniscient creator (and accepting the idea of a fixed future) it follows that God HAS dictated the daily actions of every living being whether they have free will or not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by NoNukes, posted 07-19-2014 5:55 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2014 12:58 PM PaulK has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9324
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 50 of 81 (733695)
07-20-2014 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by PaulK
07-20-2014 6:33 AM


Re: Interesting Responses
s. In fact given a truly omnipotent and omniscient creator (and accepting the idea of a fixed future) it follows that God HAS dictated the daily actions of every living being whether they have free will or not.

Who says that the future is fixed? I am not sure why you consider that a reasonable assumption. Do you think that follows from what fundies say about Revelations? Exactly where does this idea come from. It certainly isn't something I believe.

I'm genuinely puzzled PaulK. If you could expand on this I'd appreciate it.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2014 6:33 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2014 1:23 PM NoNukes has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 51 of 81 (733698)
07-20-2014 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by NoNukes
07-20-2014 12:58 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
quote:

Who says that the future is fixed?

It's necessary for complete and infallible knowledge of the future.

It's generally claimed that God has that sort of foreknowledge, so it seems a reasonable assumption.

If I were looking for a Biblical example I'd go with Jesus' prediction that Peter would deny him three times before cock-crow. To get that right - involving multiple free will decisions by multiple people - seems quite impressive if free will decisions are not knowable in advance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2014 12:58 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2014 3:52 PM PaulK has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 52 of 81 (733702)
07-20-2014 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by NoNukes
07-19-2014 5:57 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
NoNukes writes:

What's God's punishment for burning a house?


"Burning a house" was the metaphor we were using for our failures.[/qs]

Edited by zombie ringo, : Fixed quote.

Edited by zombie ringo, : Fixed quote again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by NoNukes, posted 07-19-2014 5:57 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2014 3:55 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 53 of 81 (733703)
07-20-2014 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
07-19-2014 7:12 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
NoNukes writes:

All it takes to counter a proposition is a single counter example and I just wanted to show you that your own proposition was not a necessity.


I was responding to Phat's proposition, not stating one of my own.

NoNukes writes:

God gave you a perfectly good solar system in which to live and right now he is busy elsewhere with somebody whom he has given less than he has given you. So don't screw up yours.


And if we do screw it up? Another Flood? An Apocalypse?

What I'm saying is: Go and help the people you've given less to. Leave us alone to live with our screw-ups. Give help to those who need it instead of giving punishment for "free will" mistakes.

Edited by zombie ringo, : Addedmissingspace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 07-19-2014 7:12 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9324
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 54 of 81 (733718)
07-20-2014 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by PaulK
07-20-2014 1:23 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
It's necessary for complete and infallible knowledge of the future.

Is it necessary? I think there are other possibilities.

If I were looking for a Biblical example I'd go with Jesus' prediction that Peter would deny him three times before cock-crow. To get that right - involving multiple free will decisions by multiple people - seems quite impressive if free will decisions are not knowable in advance.

Yes. That would be impressive, but if we are going to assume that some kind of infinite ability was involved, being "impressive" is not really the same as being impossible. I can at least imagine that Jesus accomplished it my knowing Peter really well (super naturally well) rather than by Yahweh tell him what Peter was going to do because it was pre-ordained.

Are astronomical predictions of future lunar eclipses examples of predicting what is pre-ordained? Surely that's a fairly dubious proposition. I can imagine just as easily imagine that omniscience works by reading people and events and forecasting outcomes in a way analogous to forecasting the weather as opposed to simple having prior knowledge of everything that is going to happen because everything is under my own control or is predetermined.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2014 1:23 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2014 4:18 PM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9324
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 55 of 81 (733719)
07-20-2014 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
07-20-2014 2:08 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
NoNukes writes:

What's God's punishment for burning a house?

"Burning a house" was the metaphor we were using for our failures.

That's fine. I don't see how that changes the thrust of my question. Living with our own failures and our own successes is not the same thing as being punished. What sense of entitlement would justify that?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 07-20-2014 2:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 07-20-2014 4:15 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 56 of 81 (733720)
07-20-2014 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by NoNukes
07-20-2014 3:55 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
NoNukes writes:

Living with our own failures and our own successes is not the same thing as being punished.


That's what I'm saying. If a god punished us on top of the natural consequences of our actions, that would be arbitrary and unproductive.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2014 3:55 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 57 of 81 (733721)
07-20-2014 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by NoNukes
07-20-2014 3:52 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
quote:

Is it necessary? I think there are other possibilities.


If the future isn't fixed it can't be infallibly known. It's a logically necessary precondition.

quote:

Yes. That would be impressive, but if we are going to assume that some kind of infinite ability was involved, being "impressive" is not really the same as being impossible. I can at least imagine that Jesus accomplished it my knowing Peter really well (super naturally well) rather than by Yahweh tell him what Peter was going to do because it was pre-ordained.

Even if Jesus had a good idea of what Peter would do I think that it would be considerably harder to work out the exact number of people who would challenge him before cock-crow. As I said, the actions of multiple people are involved.

quote:

I can imagine just as easily imagine that omniscience works by reading people and events and forecasting outcomes in a way analogous to forecasting the weather as opposed to simple having prior knowledge of everything that is going to happen because everything is under my own control or is predetermined.

I don't think that fallible predictions count as omniscience.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2014 3:52 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2014 4:54 PM PaulK has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9324
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 58 of 81 (733724)
07-20-2014 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by PaulK
07-20-2014 4:18 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
Even if Jesus had a good idea of what Peter would do I think that it would be considerably harder to work out the exact number of people who would challenge him before cock-crow. As I said, the actions of multiple people are involved.

Yes, it would be extremely hard. So what? Aren't we supposing that the feat was super natural?

And why would an infalliable knowledge of the future not be achievable by simply extending the same principle, infinitely far. You insist that this could not work, but you do not give any explanation of why it would not.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2014 4:18 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2014 5:28 PM NoNukes has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 59 of 81 (733728)
07-20-2014 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by NoNukes
07-20-2014 4:54 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
quote:

Yes, it would be extremely hard. So what? Aren't we supposing that the feat was super natural?

It's difficult enough to suggest that free will decisions are quite amazingly predictable. Even if the last one held back for a couple of minutes the prediction would have failed.

quote:

And why would an infalliable knowledge of the future not be achievable by simply extending the same principle, infinitely far. You insist that this could not work, but you do not give any explanation of why it would not.

For perfect knowledge of the future to be possible the future must be fixed somehow. If you prefer to handle it by saying the the universe operates deterministically - including all free will decisions - then that's your view. I don't see how it helps you though. The mechanism isn't the problem I'm talking about - although determinism arguably makes the problem worse.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2014 4:54 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2014 6:38 PM PaulK has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9324
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 60 of 81 (733738)
07-20-2014 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by PaulK
07-20-2014 5:28 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
It's difficult enough to suggest that free will decisions are quite amazingly predictable. Even if the last one held back for a couple of minutes the prediction would have faileid.

You continue to outline the difficulties, and I agree with you in each instance. But what you cannot explain is why those difficulties represent an impossibility for a being who can anticipate anything and everything and can make those assessments at a glance. Heck, maybe there was a little cheating in delaying the cock crow or with the challenges being given when they were.

I agree that a scheme where everything is predetermined requires less imagination to envision. But neither scheme seems any more or less plausible than the other.

f you prefer to handle it by saying the the universe operates deterministically

The universe does not operate deterministically, nor is it predetermined. I'm suggesting that neither of those things are obstacles to a being who is outside of the rules.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2014 5:28 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2014 12:34 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
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