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Author Topic:   The Concept of God -- Need Logic Help
mike the wiz
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Posts: 4600
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


(2)
Message 31 of 81 (729745)
06-18-2014 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Prince Thrash
06-20-2010 7:17 PM


This is the entirety of what I have to say, in this message. My motive is to provoke thought, so attempts to refute me are inappropriate, since I am just giving thought-provoking information. Don't then be opportunistic, because you are many voices, and I am one. Don't shoot me down because I am walking away with my back to you.

I think you've gone OMNI-crazy, Prince Thrash. That is to say, putting the word, "all" in front of anything.

People have a tendency to let modern definitions that come from human reason "take over" the issue. But what is actually originally meant in scripture, is what actually matters most.

C.S. Lewis said;

http://creation.com/...ore-powerful-than-himself-omnipotence

C.S. Lewis writes:

All agents’ here includes God Himself. His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say ‘God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it’, you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix them with the two other words ‘God can’.

I would go further and say that, the "omni" term is being used, generally in a glib way, generally speaking, by non-believers. They want to put the word before everything. God is supposed to be the epitomy of everything that has value, and He is, but the term, "omni" can't always be applied.

For example the bible never mentions anything about an "all-benevolent God" or an, "all-loving" God. Those terms tend to come from non-believers most of the time, because naturally human reason makes them come up with those types of terms, when they get to think about it.

Here is my blog entry on this issue;

http://creationworldviews.blogspot.co.uk/...ni-universe.html

Within the link to the Creation (CMI) article, there is another link given, written by Andrew Kulikovsky, about the omni-terms that we would attempt to validly apply to God, in some manner.

To quote Kulikovsky;

Kulikovsky writes:

Probably the most well known of God’s incommunicable attributes are what have become
known as the “omni” attributes – omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. However,
none of these words are actually mentioned in the scriptures, but are in fact Latin derivatives
used to identify the theological constructs pertaining to God’s power, knowledge and
presence.
It is because of this that these attributes of God have been misunderstood by many people –
both Christians and non-Christians. People’s understanding of God’s power, knowledge and
presence seems to be limited to their understanding of the words “omnipotence”,
“omniscience,” and “omnipresence” respectively.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Prince Thrash, posted 06-20-2010 7:17 PM Prince Thrash has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9758
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 32 of 81 (733513)
07-17-2014 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by PaulK
06-16-2014 1:44 AM


Re: Interesting Responses
If God created Satan in such a way that Satan would inevitably rebel then God is certainly responsible. Free Will would make Satan also responsible, but can't absolve God.
Based on this logic, God is responsible for literally everything

Which I disagree with. And even if we could theoretically blame Him, it would not change our responsibility in the matter.


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2014 1:44 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2014 2:47 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 07-18-2014 12:25 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 35 by Theodoric, posted 07-18-2014 1:36 PM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13122
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 33 of 81 (733545)
07-18-2014 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
07-17-2014 8:11 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
quote:

Based on this logic, God is responsible for literally everything
Which I disagree with.

Then your problem is with the concept of responsibility.

Perhaps you would like to suggest how it should be changed?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 07-17-2014 8:11 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 34 of 81 (733574)
07-18-2014 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
07-17-2014 8:11 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
Phat writes:

And even if we could theoretically blame Him, it would not change our responsibility in the matter.


That part I agree with.

However, our responsibility is not to Him; it's to our fellow man, our world, our consciences, etc.

When you drive a car, for example, you're not responsible to the lawmakers; you're responsible to the other people on the road. That's what the lawmakers made the law for.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 07-17-2014 8:11 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 35 of 81 (733579)
07-18-2014 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
07-17-2014 8:11 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
Based on this logic, God is responsible for literally everything

That is the onus of being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.

Seems like you don't believe in the christian god after all.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 07-17-2014 8:11 PM Phat has responded

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Phat
Member
Posts: 9758
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 36 of 81 (733590)
07-18-2014 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Theodoric
07-18-2014 1:36 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
All I am saying is that the "Christian God is not responsible for what you or I choose to do,think, or behave. He may well be responsible for allowing the possibility of evil but not the choice itself, even if foreknown..

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ramoss, posted 07-18-2014 8:38 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 41 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2014 1:52 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ramoss
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Posts: 3039
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 37 of 81 (733591)
07-18-2014 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
07-18-2014 5:57 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
And that is 'even though he knew what I would do, even before he began the act of creation'

Doesn't make a lick of sense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 07-18-2014 5:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9921
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 38 of 81 (733595)
07-18-2014 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by ramoss
07-18-2014 8:38 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
And that is 'even though he knew what I would do, even before he began the act of creation'

Doesn't make a lick of sense.

Maybe it does. There are seven billion other people on earth alone, and who knows how many other sentient beings there are in this galaxy. Maybe the fact that you, or I, or Adolf Hitler turned out to be total screw ups really isn't the standard for judging whether the universe is worthwhile. And even that would be a somewhat self centered look at things. Maybe the tiny amount of life in this solar system just isn't the point at all.

Another possible view. As silly as it may seem, perhaps having the power to create universes full at the snap of a finger doesn't mean you can do every little thing or that you should try to micromanage every little thing. In my opinion, the creation of a world full of autonomous beings who have the capability for great good, and who some times achieve something of their potential isn't all that bad a thing. And that's regardless of the fact that some of them manage to make movies like Catwoman and others decided to burn down the Library at Alexandria. Maybe it simply is not possible to create a universe that doesn't have bad stuff in it, and the alternative is an empty void.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Coyote, posted 07-18-2014 11:52 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 07-19-2014 11:44 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5989
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 39 of 81 (733597)
07-18-2014 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by NoNukes
07-18-2014 11:02 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
Heinlein had an interesting take on this in his novel, Job: A Comedy of Justice.

The creator -- well, you should probably read it for yourself...


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 07-18-2014 11:02 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9921
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 40 of 81 (733598)
07-19-2014 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Coyote
07-18-2014 11:52 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
The creator -- well, you should probably read it for yourself

I'll check it out.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Coyote, posted 07-18-2014 11:52 PM Coyote has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13122
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 41 of 81 (733601)
07-19-2014 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
07-18-2014 5:57 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
quote:

All I am saying is that the "Christian God is not responsible for what you or I choose to do,think, or behave. He may well be responsible for allowing the possibility of evil but not the choice itself, even if foreknown.

"Foreknown" greatly understates the degree of God's involvement. "Intentionally arranged" comes closer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 07-18-2014 5:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 42 of 81 (733609)
07-19-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by NoNukes
07-18-2014 11:02 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
NoNukes writes:

... perhaps having the power to create universes full at the snap of a finger doesn't mean you can do every little thing...


That would throw omnipotence out the window, making "God" just another alien overlord. And if Star Trek has taught us anything, it's that those wacky humans always defeat the alien overlord.

NoNukes writes:

... or that you should try to micromanage every little thing.


If you deliberately wouldn't try to micromanage things like, say, putting out the fire in your neighbour's house, that would make you evil.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 07-18-2014 11:02 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 07-19-2014 3:34 PM ringo has responded
 Message 45 by NoNukes, posted 07-19-2014 5:55 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9758
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 43 of 81 (733647)
07-19-2014 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
07-19-2014 11:44 AM


Re: Interesting Responses
zombie writes:

If you deliberately wouldn't try to micromanage things like, say, putting out the fire in your neighbour's house, that would make you evil.

Here again, you want your cake and eat it too. You prefer humans to be in charge of their own lives and neighborhoods. You seemingly claim that if God is to be voted to be in charge, God should put out every fire, stop every war, and stand by with a box of spiritual band aids whenever we scuff our knee.

You seem to have an axe to grind with the Big Guy. You wont let Him be in charge over you unless He takes care of everybody.

Perhaps He simply smiles, points out the pail of water, shows you the fire, and stands back like a parent...empowering His offspring---zombie Ringo---as magistrate over the small town that you live in. If God had caused the fire, that might be another thing entirely.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 07-19-2014 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 07-19-2014 3:58 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 44 of 81 (733649)
07-19-2014 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
07-19-2014 3:34 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
Phat writes:

You seemingly claim that if God is to be voted to be in charge, God should put out every fire, stop every war, and stand by with a box of spiritual band aids whenever we scuff our knee.


What do you think "in charge" means? Where does the buck stop?

Would you really want a boss who punishes you for your failures and takes credit for your succeses?

Phat writes:

If God had caused the fire....


He did. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a Prime Mover and then blame all the movement on us.

Phat writes:

Perhaps He simply smiles, points out the pail of water, shows you the fire....


But He doesn't. He hides in His heaven, refusing to even show us that He exists. We put out the fires ourselves and then He punishes us for the damage.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 07-19-2014 3:34 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by NoNukes, posted 07-19-2014 5:57 PM ringo has responded
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 3:10 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9921
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 45 of 81 (733653)
07-19-2014 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
07-19-2014 11:44 AM


Re: Interesting Responses
That would throw omnipotence out the window, making "God" just another alien overlord

The picture of omnipotence I am throwing out the window is a silly childish one. I don't care how much power you want to specify is it possible for God to create a rock he cannot lift, to create an invisible, opaque object, or to create a universe where all beings have free will, yet God dictates every one of their daily actions. Those things are not conundrums; they are just down right silly.

If you deliberately wouldn't try to micromanage things like, say, putting out the fire in your neighbour's house, that would make you evil.

No, it wouldn't. You have the power of life and death over any individual insect in your back yard. I doubt you'd bother to rescue a single one of them from being stepped on.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 07-19-2014 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 07-19-2014 6:00 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 49 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2014 6:33 AM NoNukes has responded

    
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