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Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
ICANT
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 5 of 90 (585820)
10-09-2010 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
10-09-2010 6:13 PM


Re: Mark
Hi jar,

jar writes:

Nope. In fact it says that everyone gets the "Mark", not that everyone but Christians get the "Mark'.

If everybody has the mark why is the penalty for not having the mark not being able to buy or sell?

jar writes:

As mentioned above, the mark is the same for every person. It does not identify the individual or any account or currency, it just identifies "The Second Beast". There is no way it can be used to effect some transaction.

Lets see what the text says.

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This verse say no man can buy or sell unless:

He has the mark,

OR

The name of the beast,

OR

The number of his name.

Those are 3 different things.

We are not told what the mark or the name is.

We are told what the number is.

jar writes:

no mention of a global monetary system

I don't know if there will be a global monetary system but I do know that everybody in the world will receive the mark, name, or number of the beast or they won't be able to buy or sell.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

We are also told that every person that does not worship the image of the beast will be killed.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

jar writes:

So is there any support for the claim that Revelations 13 contains ANY prophecy related to some future monetary system?

It seems that there is a system that to buy or sell you have to have a mark, name, or number in your hand or your forehead.

I am not sure but I think that would qualify as a monetary system.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 10-09-2010 6:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 10-09-2010 10:34 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 25 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2010 9:36 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 10 of 90 (585826)
10-09-2010 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
10-09-2010 10:34 PM


Re: Mark
Hi jar,

jar writes:

On, not in.

Not according to the text.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

That verse says in not on.

jar writes:

And just how do you have a monetary system that does not indicate an individual, an item or an amount?

Simple.

It makes no difference what form of currency you have if you can't buy anything with it.

It makes no difference what product you have if you can't sell it.

So if you can't buy or sell what good would currency of any kind be?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 10-09-2010 10:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 10-09-2010 11:04 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 12 of 90 (585828)
10-09-2010 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
10-09-2010 10:34 PM


Re: Mark
Hi jar,

jar writes:

Yup. It says everybody has the mark.

Everybody does not exist in the Greek text.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

He causeth small and great, rich and poor, free and bond to receive a mark in their right hand, regardless of status in life.

jar writes:

Still no mention that Christians would not have the Mark.

Do you believe a Christian would receive the mark and worship the beast?

I don't know any as they would die first.

Especially knowing that they had missed the first flight out.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 10-09-2010 10:34 PM jar has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 13 of 90 (585833)
10-09-2010 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
10-09-2010 11:04 PM


Re: Mark
Hi jar,

jar writes:

Thank you for proving that the assertion it is a monetary system is total nonsense.

Where did I make such an assertion?

I did say:

ICANT writes:

I am not sure but I think that would qualify as a monetary system.

A monetary system is one in which the government provides a mechanism for buying and selling comodities.

The beast does provide a mechanism for buying and selling.

If you have the mark, name, or number you will be able to buy or sell if you don't you will not be able to buy or sell.

Thus I still think it is a monetary system.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 10-09-2010 11:04 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Omnivorous, posted 10-10-2010 12:40 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 16 by Nij, posted 10-10-2010 1:04 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 18 by AZPaul3, posted 10-10-2010 2:12 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply
 Message 22 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 8:58 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 39 of 90 (585943)
10-10-2010 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Omnivorous
10-10-2010 12:40 AM


Re: Mark
Hi Omni,

Omnivorous writes:

So kinda like a retailer permit or wholesaler license?

I'm sure it won't take the place of those.

If you try to sell anything you will be required to produce the mark, the name or the number in your hand or forehead or you can't sell it.

If you try to buy anything the same rule will apply.

As I understand it the penalty for trying to buy or sell without the mark, name, or number is death. I will assume that anyone who would buy or sell anything to anyone who does not have the mark, name or number will suffer the same fate.

So I don't think it will be like a retailer permit or wholesaler license.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Omnivorous, posted 10-10-2010 12:40 AM Omnivorous has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by frako, posted 10-10-2010 4:39 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 40 of 90 (585946)
10-10-2010 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Nij
10-10-2010 1:04 AM


Re: Mark
Hi Nij,

Nij writes:

General sidenote: and a frickin' weird permission at that since anybody without the mark is dead anyway -- as was quoted, anybody not worshipping the Beast is killed off.

There will be many people who have heard the prophecy of this event taking place and when the world ruler who has deceived the nations stands in the Temple doorway to the Holy of Holies of the rebuilt Temple and declares himself to be god they will know what is coming. So they won't go easy. It will take 2 to 3 years before he kills them all. So their lives won't be easy.

So it is not permission to buy and sell it is your authority to buy and sell. Without the mark, name, or number in your hand or forehead you can't do either.

You could have tons of gold, piles of paper bills you still could not buy or sell anything.

I still think it is a monetary system.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Nij, posted 10-10-2010 1:04 AM Nij has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Nimrod, posted 10-10-2010 4:51 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 44 by Modulous, posted 10-10-2010 4:54 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 47 of 90 (585954)
10-10-2010 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Buzsaw
10-10-2010 9:36 AM


Re: Mark
Hi Buz,

Buzsaw writes:

No doubt about it.

I don't know what the mark is.

I don't know what the name is.

The text tells us what the number is.

Have you ever run across a text that tells what the mark or name
is?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2010 9:36 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 49 of 90 (585959)
10-10-2010 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Nimrod
10-10-2010 4:51 PM


Re: Mark
Hi Nimrod,

Nimrod writes:

But Jesus said that his ressurection would signify the new Temple when he said that if it would be destroyed then it would be rebuilt in 3 days.So thats the New Testament view of the Temple.

Now since this is totaly off topic in this thread maybe you would like to start one and discuss it.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Nimrod, posted 10-10-2010 4:51 PM Nimrod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Nimrod, posted 10-10-2010 7:01 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 50 of 90 (585960)
10-10-2010 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Modulous
10-10-2010 4:54 PM


Re: Mark
Hi Mod,

Modulous writes:

It isn't a monetary system, it is a transaction regulation system. A monetary system is what represents wealth. In the US the monetary system is dollars.

You do mean worthless dollars don't you?

I thought a monetary system was whatever mechanism the government set up to carry on the business of transfer of goods and services.

Maybe I am mistaken.

I don't think the US or the UK will be setting up the rules of the government mentioned in chapter 13 of the book of Revelation.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Modulous, posted 10-10-2010 4:54 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Nij, posted 10-10-2010 6:13 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 54 by Modulous, posted 10-10-2010 8:15 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 55 of 90 (586034)
10-10-2010 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Nij
10-10-2010 6:13 PM


Re: Mark
Hi Nij,

Nij writes:

You do not trade the mark, thus the mark is not currency, and so it is not part any monetary system.
You require the mark to buy and sell; but you do not buy and sell using the marks to pay.

Since that assertion I am going to assume you know what the mark and the name is, so could you tell me where in the text I can find out what they are?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Nij, posted 10-10-2010 6:13 PM Nij has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 8:33 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 75 by Nij, posted 10-11-2010 1:40 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 58 of 90 (586037)
10-10-2010 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Modulous
10-10-2010 8:15 PM


Re: Mark
Hi Mod,

Modulous writes:

Yes, worthless dollars.

Well I was comparing them to the 1425 dollars I paid for my first pickup truck that a comparable truck today costs 30,000 of them.

Modulous writes:

quote:
An economic system is the structure of production, allocation of economic inputs, distribution of economic outputs, and consumption of goods and services in an economy.

Which of these cover,

A mark in your hand or forehead? What is this mark?

A name in your hand or forehead? What is this name?

Or a number in your hand or forehead? This is the number 666.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Modulous, posted 10-10-2010 8:15 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 8:55 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 61 by Modulous, posted 10-10-2010 8:57 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 62 of 90 (586042)
10-10-2010 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by jar
10-10-2010 8:33 PM


Re: Mark
Hi jar,

jar writes:

Too funny and yet another example of you trying to misdirect the audience attention while you palm the pea. Did you ever read the Bible or even the OP?

Sure I read the Bible and before I started posting in this thread I checked the Greek text and it does not have "which is " in it. It has the Greek word ἤ which means either, or. You shouldn't always trust the NIV perversion.

So the mark is one thing.

The name is another.

The number is 666.

jar writes:

It is NOT a monetary system.

Call it anything you want to call it. You won't be able to buy or sell anything without it. In fact you will probably be shot when you can not produce one of the three in your hand or forehead.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 8:33 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 9:07 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 64 of 90 (586046)
10-10-2010 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Modulous
10-10-2010 8:57 PM


Re: Mark
Hi Mod,

Modulous writes:

The fact that these things are required to trade would at least come under

quote:
...distribution of economic outputs, and consumption of goods and services

One of the three is required to live must less buy or sell.

Now let me muse a little.

I go to the friendly grocery store and gather some groceries in the cart and go to the register. The lady tallies my total and I writer her a check. She asks me for my identification with a picture on it I produce my drivers license and she processes the check.

The check is a form of currency in the US.

But if I don't produce identification with a picture on it she don't process the check and I don't get the goods.

My producing identification is a part of the monetary process.

The mark, name, or number is identifiation which makes it a part of the transaction.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Modulous, posted 10-10-2010 8:57 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Modulous, posted 10-11-2010 12:29 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 66 of 90 (586053)
10-10-2010 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
10-10-2010 8:55 PM


Re: Attractive Rabbit Hole warning
Hi jar,

jar writes:

it is the name of the Beast.

I know the number of the Beast is 666.

I know the name of the Beast is the name of the Beast.

What I don't know is what that name is.

Also I don't know what the mark is mentioned in:

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

This verse does not say anything about buying or selling. It does not say what that mark is. Nowhere in the text does it say what this mark is.

In Message 63 you said:

jar writes:

LOL. I'm not gonna much worry about it since Revelation was talking about stuff from almost 2000 years ago.

You don't believe the Bible so why would you worry about it?

jar writes:

BUT the point is, the assertion quoted in the OP is still refuted, the MARK is NOT a monetary system.

Once you tell me what the mark is mentioned in Revelation 13:16 we can detrmine whether you have refuted the assertion quoted in the OP.

You can't refute an unknown.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 8:55 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 10:15 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 68 of 90 (586057)
10-10-2010 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
10-10-2010 9:51 PM


Re: More on the likely reality of Revelation
Hi jar,

jar writes:

Claudius was followed by Nero who is likely the Emperor in power at the time Revelation is written. Nero is the Emperor in power at the beginning of the first Jewish War, the Great Revolt.

Nero died in 68 AD. Source

The book of Revelation was written in 95 AD. Source

Scholars are not united on this date.

The scholars are not really united on this matter, and in the course of certain theological views the late date is preferred today by the majority. The interpretations based on the acceptance of the late date as correct usually place the events recorded in the book of Revelation in the still future and thus they consider the prophecies in Revelation as unfulfilled. Rather important for the acceptance of the late date (approx. 96 AD) is a quote from a writing of the church father Irenaeus where he mentions John in the context of the persecutions of Christians by Caesar Domitian. Based on this source, the writing of Revelation is then placed in the time of Domitian because of the mention that John was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God.
Source

Irenaeus puts John in the days of Caesar Domitian which requires the later date.

This date is after the events you are talking about so they could not have been the prophesies in Revelation.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 9:51 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 10:32 PM ICANT has responded

    
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