Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 109 (8803 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-23-2017 5:50 AM
397 online now:
PaulK (1 member, 396 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 822,874 Year: 27,480/21,208 Month: 1,393/1,714 Week: 236/365 Day: 5/73 Hour: 0/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
15161718
19
20Next
Author Topic:   Wright et al. on the Process of Mutation
Percy
Member
Posts: 16170
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 271 of 296 (648755)
01-18-2012 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by zi ko
01-18-2012 12:37 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
zi ko writes:

You've examined mutations in fossils? Wow!

Gould and others dit it.

Gould and others examined mutations in fossils? Wow!

Zi Ko, think a little bit about this. With rare exceptions, fossils contain no organic material. DNA is organic. There is no DNA in fossils.

You still do not seem to understand that mutation and natural selection pull in different directions regarding with you call "life preservation," and I would have thought this would have prevented you from making a clear statement relative about Wright and Shapiro, and yet you successfully pull it off in Message 267:

zi ko in Message 267 writes:

But there is evidence brought by Shapiro, wright, Yablonca ect, showing that information from environment guides evolution direction by direct action and not just indirectly through natural selection.

Yes, you are right that this is what Shapiro and Wright appear to be saying, but as has been pointed out many times, they greatly exaggerate.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by zi ko, posted 01-18-2012 12:37 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by zi ko, posted 01-18-2012 12:52 PM Percy has responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1212 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 272 of 296 (648783)
01-18-2012 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Percy
01-18-2012 9:59 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
You've examined mutations in fossils? Wow!

Come on Percy! The original issue was:
"The relative lack of intermediate fossils during periods of great environmental changes ."
This is I am refering to.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Percy, posted 01-18-2012 9:59 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Percy, posted 01-18-2012 2:21 PM zi ko has not yet responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1212 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 273 of 296 (648784)
01-18-2012 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Larni
01-18-2012 3:26 AM


Re: Directed mutations.
That is not what Shapiro says and you know it. You have had that pointed out to you many times.
No one believes random mutations are the only factor in evolution. This you have been told many times.

Why do you keep ignoring what you have been told?


I refer you to message 271 by Percy.
I never had ignored natural selection.Is there anything else you thing i ignore? Try to unndestand what i am saying.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Larni, posted 01-18-2012 3:26 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Larni, posted 01-18-2012 1:46 PM zi ko has not yet responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1212 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 274 of 296 (648785)
01-18-2012 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Taq
01-17-2012 4:37 PM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
So what are these mutations?

The increased rate of mutations that led to rapid evolution renders them directed .

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Taq, posted 01-17-2012 4:37 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by bluegenes, posted 01-18-2012 3:17 PM zi ko has responded
 Message 279 by Taq, posted 01-19-2012 2:18 PM zi ko has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3951
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 275 of 296 (648787)
01-18-2012 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by zi ko
01-18-2012 1:13 PM


Re: Directed mutations.
I understand what you are saying.

It is wrong.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by zi ko, posted 01-18-2012 1:13 PM zi ko has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16170
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 276 of 296 (648795)
01-18-2012 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by zi ko
01-18-2012 12:52 PM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
zi ko writes:

Come on Percy! The original issue was:
"The relative lack of intermediate fossils during periods of great environmental changes ."
This is I am refering to.

Since you haven't edited your original message, what you actually said is still there in Message 262:

zi ko in Message 262 writes:

I show you two cases of guided mutations:
1.The relative lack of intermediate fossils during periods of greate environmental changes.

Hence the comment, "You've examined mutations in fossils? Wow!"

With only rare exceptions fossils do not contain organic material. You cannot cite the lack of intermediate fossils as an example of guided mutations because there are no mutations to examine.

In the future I suggest that if you're going to selectively quote mine your own posts that you edit them first so you don't get caught.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by zi ko, posted 01-18-2012 12:52 PM zi ko has not yet responded

    
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 69 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 277 of 296 (648797)
01-18-2012 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by zi ko
01-18-2012 1:25 PM


Rapid change.
ziko writes:

The increased rate of mutations that led to rapid evolution renders them directed .

Rapid change in phenotype doesn't necessarily imply an increased mutation rate. Rather, new and strong selection pressure can be working on existing variation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by zi ko, posted 01-18-2012 1:25 PM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by zi ko, posted 01-28-2012 11:48 AM bluegenes has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 278 of 296 (648954)
01-19-2012 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by zi ko
01-18-2012 1:16 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
No one can prove tedency in nature.

The Wright et al. paper demonstrates that we can.

But in spite of any deleterious mutatations the fact is that life is preserved;

Where did you show that? If Wright et al. used a population of just 100 bacteria they would not have been preserved given the fact that the beneficial mutation only occurs once in every 500 million divisions.

The existance of deleterious or neutral mutations does not cancel this tedency.

I guess you have never heard of the multiple mass extinctions that have occurred in Earth's history? The Permian extinction saw more than 90% of species disappearing from the face of the Earth.

Again your evidence maby it is misinterpreted by you.You have to prove, at least for yourself, there is not any tedency behind these "facts".

That is exactly what I have done in this thread. The data from the paper demonstrates that the increased mutation rate is specific to ssDNA, not the leuB gene. If you are going to claim that I am misrepresenting the findings then you had better show how I am misrepresenting it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by zi ko, posted 01-18-2012 1:16 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by zi ko, posted 01-28-2012 11:26 AM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 279 of 296 (648955)
01-19-2012 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by zi ko
01-18-2012 1:25 PM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
The increased rate of mutations that led to rapid evolution renders them directed .

Again, I have shown that this is not true with reference to the Wright et al. paper. It is an increase in the random mutation rate, not directed mutagenesis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by zi ko, posted 01-18-2012 1:25 PM zi ko has not yet responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1212 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 280 of 296 (650161)
01-28-2012 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Taq
01-19-2012 2:16 PM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
The Wright et al. paper demonstrates that we can.

Let's suppose you are right in your deductions. You still have to prove that the same mechanisms or principles apply to higher types of life. Also that the "obvious" lack o tedency on this experiment was not the result of nuture's "knowledge" that tedency on that particular case was not necessary; so the tedency to life preservation was not clearly evident, but it was there.
Where did you show that? If Wright et al. used a population of just 100 bacteria they would not have been preserved given the fact that the beneficial mutation only occurs once in every 500 million divisions.

But what if nature can "know"that 500 million divisions is a usual happening and could rely on this fact?
I guess you have never heard of the multiple mass extinctions that have occurred in Earth's history? The Permian extinction saw more than 90% of species disappearing from the face of the Earth.

I guess you have never heard of the multiple mass extinctions that have occurred in Earth's history? The Permian extinction saw more than 90% of species disappearing from the face of the Earth.


But in spite of this life managed to preserve itself so successfuly.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Taq, posted 01-19-2012 2:16 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Taq, posted 01-30-2012 12:53 PM zi ko has responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1212 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 281 of 296 (650164)
01-28-2012 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by bluegenes
01-18-2012 3:17 PM


Re: Rapid change.
Rapid change in phenotype doesn't necessarily imply an increased mutation rate. Rather, new and strong selection pressure can be working on existing variation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would tend to to agree with you. But it could also mean that changes originated from neural system may be intervening. (see www.sleepgadgedabs.com). Your use of the word "rather" i suppose you imply that you accept the possibility, that other things could be happening as well.If strong selection pressures is the only couse, which might well be true, then it has to clearly beyond any doupt be proved; and particularly it has to be sure that other co-working couses are excluded.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by bluegenes, posted 01-18-2012 3:17 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Admin, posted 01-28-2012 1:41 PM zi ko has responded
 Message 283 by bluegenes, posted 01-28-2012 4:32 PM zi ko has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12534
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 282 of 296 (650168)
01-28-2012 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by zi ko
01-28-2012 11:48 AM


Re: Rapid change.
Hi Zi Ko,

When someone uses the same argument in thread after thread regardless of topic, thereby causing those threads to go off-topic, then we ask them to take that argument to its own thread and to stop introducing it in other threads. You already had a thread to discuss your ideas, Nature's innate intelligence. Does it exist?, but now you're trying to introduce them into other threads. These are the ones I've found so far:

You've already lost your posting privileges in the Human Origins and Evolution forum. If you continue discussing the ideas from your webpage in threads where it is not the designated topic then I will remove your posting permissions in the rest of the science forums. If you would like to continue working on the topic proposal you began (Did evolution evolve?) then let me know and I will reopen it.

You misspelled the url of your webpage, please do not correct it.

Edited by Admin, : Grammar.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by zi ko, posted 01-28-2012 11:48 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by zi ko, posted 01-30-2012 1:14 AM Admin has responded
 Message 286 by zi ko, posted 01-30-2012 11:12 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 69 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 283 of 296 (650181)
01-28-2012 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by zi ko
01-28-2012 11:48 AM


Re: Rapid change.
zi ko writes:

If strong selection pressures is the only couse, which might well be true, then it has to clearly beyond any doupt be proved; and particularly it has to be sure that other co-working couses are excluded.

I think that I agree with Percy that you should take your ideas to the thread proposal that you made earlier, because we'll be wandering off the topic of the Wright paper if we discuss this. I was replying to a comment you made on rapid change in the fossil record, which doesn't directly relate to this topic at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by zi ko, posted 01-28-2012 11:48 AM zi ko has not yet responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1212 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 284 of 296 (650310)
01-30-2012 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by Admin
01-28-2012 1:41 PM


Re: Rapid change.
O.K Percy,
but what if in a thread i read a question or an issue that could IMO give an answer or a new direction to the discussion related to the issue? In that case you may give the impression that you are afraid of discussing the issue from all possible views-sides.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Admin, posted 01-28-2012 1:41 PM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Admin, posted 01-30-2012 7:12 AM zi ko has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12534
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 285 of 296 (650322)
01-30-2012 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by zi ko
01-30-2012 1:14 AM


Re: Rapid change.
Hi Zi Ko,

Moderators deal with specific situations as they arise. I can't answer your hypothetical, but you already have an answer regarding your insertion of your webpage and its hypothesis in thread after thread.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by zi ko, posted 01-30-2012 1:14 AM zi ko has not yet responded

    
RewPrev1
...
15161718
19
20Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017