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Author Topic:   Wright et al. on the Process of Mutation
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1234 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 286 of 296 (650343)
01-30-2012 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by Admin
01-28-2012 1:41 PM


Re: Rapid change.
If you would like to continue working on the topic proposal you began (Did evolution evolve?) then let me know and I will reopen it.

Yes please.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Admin, posted 01-28-2012 1:41 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
Taq
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Posts: 7279
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 287 of 296 (650348)
01-30-2012 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by zi ko
01-28-2012 11:26 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
You still have to prove that the same mechanisms or principles apply to higher types of life.

What I can say is that mutations are random with respect to fitness in the species that have been studied. You are trying to claim that mutations are NOT random with respect to fitness, and yet you can not point to a single study where this is the case.

Also that the "obvious" lack o tedency on this experiment was not the result of nuture's "knowledge" that tedency on that particular case was not necessary; so the tedency to life preservation was not clearly evident, but it was there.

Then supply the evidence from the paper that it was there.

But what if nature can "know"that 500 million divisions is a usual happening and could rely on this fact?

What if it didn't?

But in spite of this life managed to preserve itself so successfuly.

But many species did not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by zi ko, posted 01-28-2012 11:26 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by zi ko, posted 02-01-2012 1:04 AM Taq has responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1234 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 288 of 296 (650556)
02-01-2012 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Taq
01-30-2012 12:53 PM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
What if it didn't?

So regarding the issue of tendency for life preservation we are equally footed. It is a matter of belief.I believe there is, you believe there is not, becouse there isn't any evidence of it.I can understand it.Can we agree as honest men on this?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Taq, posted 01-30-2012 12:53 PM Taq has responded

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 Message 290 by Taq, posted 02-01-2012 11:37 AM zi ko has not yet responded

    
Panda
Member (Idle past 1327 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 289 of 296 (650589)
02-01-2012 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by zi ko
02-01-2012 1:04 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
zi ko writes:

It is a matter of belief.I believe there is, you believe there is not, becouse there isn't any evidence of it.


Belief - acceptance without evidence - is not science.

I believe that aliens kidnap you (yes, you) when you are asleep and perform experiments on you.
It is a matter of belief.I believe they do; you believe they don't because there isn't any evidence of it.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

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Taq
Member
Posts: 7279
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 290 of 296 (650607)
02-01-2012 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by zi ko
02-01-2012 1:04 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
So regarding the issue of tendency for life preservation we are equally footed.

No, we aren't. I have an evidenced mechanism where life is producing mutations that are random with respect to fitness. You claim that they are guided by life's knowledge, but you have no evidence for any mechanism by which this happens. My claims are based on evidence. Your claims are based on wishful thinking.

It is a matter of belief.

No, it is a matter of evidence. I have it. You don't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by zi ko, posted 02-01-2012 1:04 AM zi ko has not yet responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1234 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 291 of 296 (650696)
02-02-2012 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Taq
01-17-2012 4:35 PM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
You can not see any tedency in nature. But this again is a belief.

How can you say that after 200+ posts where we discussed a paper that demonstrated those tendencies?


I din't understand it. What do you mean by "those tendencies"?

What is anyway your evidence that information is not guiding evolution?

My evidence that fitness is not guiding mutation is that the increased mutation rate was specific to ssDNA, not the leuB gene.

The question is quite different.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Taq, posted 01-17-2012 4:35 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Taq, posted 02-02-2012 11:10 AM zi ko has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7279
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 292 of 296 (650708)
02-02-2012 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by zi ko
02-02-2012 9:33 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
I din't understand it. What do you mean by "those tendencies"?

The tendency for mutations to be random with respect to fitness. Even more specifically, the tendency for single stranded DNA to accumulate more random mutations than double stranded DNA in E. coli.

The question is quite different.

Such a statement is usually followed by an explanation of how it is different.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by zi ko, posted 02-02-2012 9:33 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by zi ko, posted 03-14-2012 2:45 AM Taq has responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1234 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 293 of 296 (655846)
03-14-2012 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by Taq
02-02-2012 11:10 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
The tendency for mutations to be random with respect to fitness.

I think "respect to life preserving" is more appropriate, as wider and more representative term.Also it touches the issue at the core and makes it more difficult to defend.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Taq, posted 02-02-2012 11:10 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 295 by Taq, posted 03-15-2012 12:39 AM zi ko has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12536
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 294 of 296 (655871)
03-14-2012 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by zi ko
03-14-2012 2:45 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
zi ko writes:

I think "respect to life preserving" is more appropriate, as wider and more representative term.Also it touches the issue at the core and makes it more difficult to defend.

We're not going to debate well established terminology.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 7279
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 295 of 296 (655932)
03-15-2012 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by zi ko
03-14-2012 2:45 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
I think "respect to life preserving" is more appropriate, as wider and more representative term.

The chances of life being preserved is defined by the random mutation rate. I really don't see how this helps resolve anything. We are right back to the probability of a specific mutation occuring and how it relates to fitness.

In the case of this paper, there is a 1 in 500 million chance of a bacterium getting the needed mutation. This probability changes as a function of the state of the DNA, either single stranded or double stranded. The probability is not affected by the NEEDS of the organism which makes the mutation random with respect to fitness. If the needed mutation were in a gene that was not actively transcribed then this mechanism would lower the chances of life being preserved. This same mechanism also increases the deleterious mutation rate in important and vital genes that are actively transcribed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by zi ko, posted 03-14-2012 2:45 AM zi ko has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19301
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 296 of 296 (816350)
08-03-2017 8:37 AM


bump for mutation "target" areas discussion
I get a message that this will enter summation mode soon. The boundary has been reset in recent years, so that probably needs to go away?

Enjoy


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