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Author Topic:   How did the Aborigines get to Australia?
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 1 of 226 (645800)
12-29-2011 9:05 PM


One question that comes up alot when discussing Noahs Flood is how did the kangaroos/wallabies get to Australia. When humans evolved in Africa 200,000 years ago, the Aboriginals got to Australia by boat and foot. If the Aboriginal people can get to Australia why is it unbelievable to believe that kangaroos/wallabies can get there?
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

Replies to this message:
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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 20 of 226 (645959)
01-01-2012 12:42 AM


Australia was once connected to Asia! Land bridges could have helped migration if water levels were lower in the past. Some animals have migrated to other countries using rafts and floating islands. "In times of flood, large masses of earth and entwining vegetation, including trees, may be torn loose from the banks of rivers and swept out to sea. Sometimes such masses are encountered floating in the ocean out of sight of land, still lush and green, with palms, twenty to thirty feet tall. It is entirely probable that land animals may be transported long distances in this manner. Mayr records that many tropical ocean currents have a speed of at least two knots; this would amount to fifty miles a day, 1000 miles in three weeks." - Paul Moody, University of Vermont. "It seems certain that land animals do at times cross considerable bodies of water where land connections are utterly lacking. Floating masses of vegetation, such as are sometimes found off the mouths of the Amazon, may be one means of effecting this type of migration. Even the case of the entry of the hystricoids [porcupine-like rodents] into South America may be a case of this sort, and one successful crossing might populate a continent." - Alfred Romer, Harvard University.
Lack of fossils documenting the migration of marsupials doesnt mean it didnt happen. Many animals are not documented in the fossil record because the "fossil record is incomplete". Did you know that millions of buffalos roamed the western praires and barely left a shred of fossil evidence that they existed? Did you know that the Indian Ocean tsunami destroyed the lives of 250 thousand people in 17 countries and barely any animals were killed? Evolution actually demands that marsupials lived in other parts of the world. "The marsupials spread over the world, in all directions. They could not go far to the north before striking impossible climate, but the path south was open all the way to the tips of Africa and South America and through Australia. The placental mammals proved to be superior to the marsupials in the struggle for existence and drove the marsupials out, that is, forced them southward. Australia was then connected by land with Asia, so that it could receive the fugitives. Behind them the true mammals were coming; but before the latter reached Australia, that continent was separated from Asia, and the primitive types to the south were protected from further competition." - A. Franklin Shull, Professor of Zoology, University of Michigan.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

Replies to this message:
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 Message 27 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-01-2012 9:55 AM Portillo has replied
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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 22 of 226 (645962)
01-01-2012 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Granny Magda
12-30-2011 8:27 AM


Re: Biogeography
quote:
Please show me the fossil evidence for Asian wallabies. Even suggesting that marsupials came from Asia in a big boat is simply childish and silly.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...5_oldestmarsupial.html

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Granny Magda, posted 12-30-2011 8:27 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 29 of 226 (646007)
01-01-2012 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Tanypteryx
01-01-2012 9:55 AM


Thousand I mean.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-01-2012 9:55 AM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


(1)
Message 48 of 226 (646299)
01-04-2012 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by saab93f
01-04-2012 5:02 AM


Re: About boats...
quote:
Although this reply is veering slighly offtopic...I have never understood how cretins (xians mostly) are claiming to be morally superior to us minnows of satan, they see no problem in outright lying to suit their agenda. I believe I am not very wrong when I claim that creationism is based on ignorance and stupidity and all it produces is hypocrisy, distortion of truth and more ignorance.
This applies well in this topic as well - when no fact suits their claims then in comes distortion of known facts. Wallabies have never traveled from Australia to Turkey and back, period.
Thats the end of that debate then. Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry to hear that Christians make your heart burn with rage.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 51 of 226 (646302)
01-04-2012 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Pressie
01-04-2012 5:53 AM


Re: About boats...
Then they should close down the forum or at least rename it to evolution forum.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Pressie, posted 01-04-2012 5:53 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Larni, posted 01-04-2012 6:47 AM Portillo has replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 53 of 226 (646305)
01-04-2012 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Larni
01-04-2012 6:47 AM


Re: About boats...
Evolution vs Divine Intervention.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Larni, posted 01-04-2012 6:47 AM Larni has not replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 66 of 226 (647736)
01-11-2012 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Granny Magda
01-04-2012 9:17 AM


Re: Public vs Scientific Controversy
quote:
I can sympathise with you on that score, but the truth of the matter is that the debate amongst scientists has ended. All of the things we've touched on in this thread - evolution, common ancestry, human and animal migration, plate tectonics - they've been an accepted part of the scientific consensus for a long time now.
Why then do people prefer to chat here rather than on an evolution forum? Seems like there would be alot less stress in your life if you didnt have to deal with creation. Unless of course this place is a creationist rehabilitation center.
quote:
By the way, how do you feel about the model for marsupial evolution and migration that has been presented so far? Do you still have problems with it? If so, what is troubling you?
It seems like there is an agreement that the marsupials got to Australia from other countries.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Granny Magda, posted 01-04-2012 9:17 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by caffeine, posted 01-11-2012 4:27 AM Portillo has not replied
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 Message 72 by Granny Magda, posted 01-11-2012 9:08 AM Portillo has replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


(1)
Message 77 of 226 (648071)
01-13-2012 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Granny Magda
01-11-2012 9:08 AM


Re: Public vs Scientific Controversy
The problem is that public opinion (especially in the US) hasn't caught up.
One misconception is that the only people who doubt evolution are fundies from Alabama. Research shows that there is skepticism in other countries.
Poll reveals public doubts over Charles Darwin's theory of evolution
One in three Swiss thinks it is "definitely false" that humans developed from earlier species of animals, according to an international survey on evolution. How seriously should we take the news that only Austria is less enlightened among "old" European countries? Is it simply a reflection of Switzerland's religious history and dislike of change — or a serious failure of the education system? The journal Science recently published a survey by Jon Miller at Michigan State University which put the following statement to more than 34,000 people in 32 European countries, the United States and Japan: "Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals." In Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, and France, 80 per cent or more of adults said this was "definitely true", as did 78 per cent of Japanese adults. Only Turkey (25 per cent) saved the United States' (40 per cent) blushes. Sixty per cent of the 1,000 Swiss respondents agreed with the statement — putting them in 22nd position — 10 per cent were not sure and 30 per cent said it was "definitely false". "Thirty per cent is disturbingly high," Sebastian Bonhoeffer, professor of theoretical biology at the Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, told swissinfo. "It disturbs me for professional reasons, but what really disturbs me is something deeper that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with evolution. It is that people are obviously willing to believe things rather than critically assess evidence and look behind arguments — this eventually applies not only to science but also to other issues in society." Indeed Switzerland's system of direct democracy is especially vulnerable to an inability to separate fact from fiction. When Swiss voters approved a five-year ban on genetically modified organisms at the end of last year, Klaus Ammann from the Committee against a Gentech Moratorium and director of Bern's Botanical Gardens told swissinfo: "The pro-people had a very easy game to come with all sorts of pseudo-facts and half-truths because the population was ready to believe it." Not good for democracy Rolf Strasser, a Christian journalist focusing on the sociology of religion, also says many Swiss struggle with scientific evidence. "For many of [the 30 per cent] the mainstream thinking of evolution is not convincing enough, because ideology and science are mixed too much, especially in the writings of so-called scientific journalism and school books," he told swissinfo. "A better understanding of science is good for tolerance, but the scientific community should communicate better what is real science and what is hypothesis. Blind faith in religious or non-religious beliefs is not good for democracy." During a national vote on embryo stem cell research a couple of years ago, Interior Minister Pascal Couchepin, who is responsible for education (and who supported the research), said: "God gave us intelligence in order to use it and to understand nature." It's hard to measure how many of the two-thirds of voters who eventually backed the research thought likewise, but it's equally hard to imagine a French or British education minister making comments like that. Intellectual independence For Bonhoeffer it's not so much a question of science versus religion but rather of being able to make up one's own mind based on the evidence. "I don't want to blame the Swiss in particular here, but I think [the survey] does reflect bad education," he said. "There's certainly a community who cannot be convinced [of evolution], but I think there is also a large community who could be convinced if they were taught how to assess evidence. "We should not teach people that this is how the world works, believe it! We should teach them how to deal with evidence and how to critically assess different hypotheses. If we teach them this well — and in a way that is not dogmatic — they will come to the conclusion that there is overwhelming evidence that we did indeed derive from other animals." swissinfo, Thomas Stephens In brief The Federal Constitution lays down the right to education and the obligation to attend school, but cantons are permitted to take their own independent decisions when it comes to the structure of their education systems, syllabuses and the dates of school holidays. This means there are currently 26 differing education systems in Switzerland, although the system is set to be harmonised. The Swiss Conference of Cantonal Ministers of Education told swissinfo that the issue of pupils not accepting evolution has never come up for discussion as part of intercantonal coordination. Evolution All living organisms — from humans to mountain goats to edelweiss — are distant cousins and have evolved, through genetic mutations and the process of natural selection, from a single self-replicating molecule that popped into existence by chemical chance some 3.5 billion years ago. Natural selection is the non-random process by which organisms with favourable traits survive and reproduce more than rivals, thus genes that build successful survival machines get passed on more than less successful genes. Evolution via natural selection thus explains how simple organisms can, over millions of years, result in complex organisms seemingly designed for their environment without requiring any supernatural "designer". The evidence for evolution is overwhelming — not just in biology and geology, but also physics and cosmology.
In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise - The Boston Globe
Russia: Creationism Finds Support Among Young

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 132 of 226 (648415)
01-15-2012 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by DrJones*
01-15-2012 1:16 AM


That's great but its not what the evidence shows
Its as far back as recorded history goes.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by DrJones*, posted 01-15-2012 1:16 AM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 138 of 226 (652616)
02-15-2012 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Larni
01-15-2012 3:06 PM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions
If there is no evidence for a great flood on Earth.
Fossils are found in sedimentary rock which is formed by flowing water. 95% of the fossil record are marine inverbrates. Fossils are buried in mass sediments that sometimes cover several American states! What kind of streams are we talking about? Sounds like a catastrophic extinction with lots of water.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Larni, posted 01-15-2012 3:06 PM Larni has replied

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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 145 of 226 (652773)
02-16-2012 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Dr Adequate
02-16-2012 12:09 AM


Re:
Tell me something. It is clear that you have never studied geology. And you must know that you have never studied geology. In which case why do you not draw the obvious corrolaries that (a) you don't know anything about it and (b) you should therefore not presume to go around lecturing other people on it?
I think its (c) Im a crazy creationist.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-16-2012 12:09 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 155 of 226 (669437)
07-30-2012 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Larni
02-15-2012 4:51 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions
Evidence for the flood is seen in the fossils. Thats how fossils are made, with water and sediment. Trillions of beautifully preserved fossils, all over the world. Why are fossils evidence of flooding? Because they were buried so rapidly, that they couldnt oxidize, decay or be destroyed by predators. Every part of the world, you can see these fossils. When you see billions of fossils buried in one strata. What do you think happened to these animals, did they all die from natural causes at the same time or were they buried with a huge mass of sediment saturated water, smashed and preserved.
Granny Magda writes:
If fossils exist as a result of the great flood, we would see far more terrestrial animals in the sediments than we do. We ought to see many land-based animals mixed in with the marine. The fact that we generally see marine creatures in marine sediments and freshwater fossils in freshwater sediments ought to tell you that those sediments record a living ecosystem, that layed down its fossils over a period of years, not in a single catastrophic event. And fossils are buried in discrete layers that place the most ancient species at the bottom and the most recent at the top. Can you tell me how a flood would do that? Can you tell me how a flood could put all the trilobites toward the bottom of the pile, but leave all the whales close to the top?
The neat fossil record chart that is seen in textbooks doesnt actually exist anywhere on the planet. You find polystrate fossils on every continent. You find horseshoe crabs, shrimps and clams at the top of mountains. Bottom dwelling animals at 20,000 feet about sea level. In Cumberland Bone Cave, you find massive graveyards of animals from the tropics and artics. Climate animals like bats, reptiles, birds, mastodons and mammals. From land to sea animals, the tropics and artics, all together and buried.
Percy writes:
A flood would jumble everything up instead of producing a progression of gradual change.
Good question. If there was a global flood, why dont we find fossils mixed up, such as humans, horses and cows at the bottom? The question is though, do humans, horses and cows live at the bottom of the ocean? What you would expect to find is fossils buried in their habitat, although you do find marine fossils on continents. When a catastrophe such as a tornado, earthquake, or flood happens, who knows first, the animals or people? The animals usually know whats coming, so they get out of there.
During the Indian Ocean Tsunami, even though the lives of 250,000 people were destroyed, few animals were killed. You know why? Because the animals had a premonition of the coming catastrophe and fled for the hills. But which animals cant get out of there? The corals, sponges, hydroids, arthropods, sea anemones, crustaceans, and all the little bottom dwelling animals who cant get away. The reason why land animals were able to get away is because the flood took months and months, as the waters came higher and higher. So many drowned and werent fossilized.

Can thine heart endure or can thine hands be strong, in the days that I shall deal with thee? I the Lord have spoken it and will do it. - Ezekial 22:14

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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 163 of 226 (669853)
08-04-2012 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Panda
07-30-2012 5:09 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions
Panda writes:
Could you tell me: how long do fossils take to form?
Fish dont float to the bottom of the ocean and are fossilized over millions of years. They are annihilated by scavengers before they hit the ground. Natures way of stopping the ocean bottoms from becoming huge garbage dumps. How long do fossils take to form? They are entombed by a catastrophe very rapidly, so they dont have a chance to decay or be eaten by scavengers. A global flood is a mechanism for rapid, massive, fossilization of billions of creatures.
RAZD writes:
How do you explain dessicated fossils aka naturally formed mummies?
There are some fossils being formed today, but large scale fossilization is not occuring anywhere in the world. Dr. Dana Desone, said "While dinosaurs were the most famous organisms to become extinct at the end of the cretaceous. The tragedy was far more widespread. 65 to 75% of all earths organisms vanished. Hardest hit were the land animals. In all although 88% of the land dwelling species vanished, as many 90% of those inhabiting fresh water survived. Marine organisms were not spared, almost 50% of the marine species died off. Without question, the KT extinctions were a global disaster of unimaginable proportions." Where on earth do we find extinction-catastrophe events happening like this today?
A mountain range in Southern California has 10 billion fossils, in Wyoming there is trillions of fossilized animals and vegetation, millions of wooly mammoths buried, preserved and frozen in time in Siberia. Dr. Ivan Sanderson said about the mammoths, "First the mammoth was upright, but it had a broken hip. Second, its exterior was whole and perfect, with none of its two-foot long shaggy fur rubbed or torn off. Third, it was fresh; its parts, although they started to rot when the heat of fire got at them, were just as they had been in life; the stomach contents had not begun to decompose. Finally, there were buttercups on its tongue." In the Karoo formation in South Africa, there are millions of vetebrates, ripped apart and thrown in heaps. Massive fossil graveyards all over the world. If your going to explain an event in the past, you have to invoke a cause which is known to produce the effect in question. What is the effect that causes mass death and fossilization? Floods, earthquakes, tsunamis, tidal waves, and meteor strikes, ripping up the continental shelfs. You end up with incredible evidence of mass death, flooding and catastrophe.
dwise writes:
So bottom-dwelling animals lived on mountain tops at 20,000 feet above sea level?
The mountains were underwater during the flood. How did these fossils get thousands of feet above sea level? They didnt climb up the mountain and bury themselves. They were smashed and entombed, under the ocean in mud, and pushed up after the flood. After the flood, the mountains went up and the basins went down. So you have a complete reconfiguration of the topography and geography of the world. Catastrophe "may do more in an hour or a day than the ordinary processes of nature have achieved in a thousand years."

Can thine heart endure or can thine hands be strong, in the days that I shall deal with thee? I the Lord have spoken it and will do it. - Ezekial 22:14

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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 176 of 226 (671400)
08-24-2012 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by RAZD
08-04-2012 6:42 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions, round 2
RAZD writes:
and most of the fossil record just does not match this prediction. In science we say that such failed predictions mean the hypothesis is highly questionable and needs to be adjusted to better fit the evidence...
It fits the prediction of mass-catastrophe and mass-death. The fossil chart that appears in the textbooks doesnt actually exist anywhere on the planet. The fossil chart has a gradual process from marine invertebrates, to vertebrate fish, amphibians, reptiles, man etc. However, 95% of the fossil record is marine invertebrates. 95% of the remaining fossils are plants. The rest is mostly fish and insects. The land dwelling vertebrates make up less than 1% of the record. Is it any surprise that the planet is filled with water, marine fossils, sedimentary deposits and fossil graveyards? The planet is covered with evidence of a watery catastrophe.
RAZD writes:
Please cite chapter and verse where the bible states this happens.
In Psalm 104, it says "Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains." Like a blanket of water covering the earth. Preflood mountains were different to todays mountains. They were lower in elevation, they had no fossils, and were not covered in ice and snow. "The mountains rose; and the valleys sank down, to the place which thou hast founded for them. Thou hast set a boundary that they may not pass over; that they may not return to cover the earth." After the flood, the mountains rose to new altitudes, the ocean basins sank down, and the waters retreated to the ocean shoreline, the boundary of the ocean.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

As truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord. - Numbers 14:21

This message is a reply to:
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