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Author Topic:   Evolution versus Creationism is a 'Red Herring' argument
PaulGL
Member (Idle past 1002 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 121 of 136 (668048)
07-16-2012 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by NoNukes
07-16-2012 12:09 PM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
Okay, never mind defining desirability in the limited way of personal preference. Rather, let it be defined as a trait which would increase the capacity of the species to survive.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by NoNukes, posted 07-16-2012 12:09 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by greentwiga, posted 07-20-2012 11:00 AM PaulGL has responded
 Message 123 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2012 5:14 PM PaulGL has responded
 Message 124 by Evlreala, posted 07-22-2012 12:33 PM PaulGL has responded

    
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 1041 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 122 of 136 (668367)
07-20-2012 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by PaulGL
07-16-2012 6:39 PM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
Separate Gen 1 from Gen 2. In Gen 1, God claims to have done something to a group of "people." If there is one gene change that made people fully conscious, such as the one controlling the self aware neuron, then what would stop God from making the change in the whole group instead of being limited to a "lucky" genetic change in one person.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by PaulGL, posted 07-16-2012 6:39 PM PaulGL has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by PaulGL, posted 07-23-2012 9:16 PM greentwiga has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10120
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 123 of 136 (668399)
07-20-2012 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by PaulGL
07-16-2012 6:39 PM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
Okay, never mind defining desirability in the limited way of personal preference. Rather, let it be defined as a trait which would increase the capacity of the species to survive.

Do you understand the objection that has been raised? Just because you find some mechanism or process to be efficient, desireable, or advantageous in propagating evolved traits does not mean that the mechanism or process is even possible, let alone that it actually occurred. It's not that no one understands your argument. Your argument simply is not persuasive.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by PaulGL, posted 07-16-2012 6:39 PM PaulGL has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by PaulGL, posted 07-23-2012 9:11 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Evlreala
Member (Idle past 690 days)
Posts: 88
From: Portland, OR United States of America
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 124 of 136 (668513)
07-22-2012 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by PaulGL
07-16-2012 6:39 PM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
Forgive me if you've already explained this, but, how are you defining "free will"?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by PaulGL, posted 07-16-2012 6:39 PM PaulGL has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by PaulGL, posted 07-23-2012 9:03 PM Evlreala has responded

    
PaulGL
Member (Idle past 1002 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 125 of 136 (668747)
07-23-2012 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Evlreala
07-22-2012 12:33 PM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
Animals have souls- scriptural. The parts/functions of sould are: Mind, emotion, and will. Animals choose according either of 2 criteria (flight or flight): namely their choices are made as a result of instinct or logic. Man, having a 'free will' is not bound to this and can come up with decisions which are not strictly the result of either influence.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Evlreala, posted 07-22-2012 12:33 PM Evlreala has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Evlreala, posted 07-26-2012 8:52 PM PaulGL has responded

    
PaulGL
Member (Idle past 1002 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 126 of 136 (668751)
07-23-2012 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by NoNukes
07-20-2012 5:14 PM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
Okay: X trait genetically appears in species Y, by whatever process (mutation, natural selection, environmental change- whatever. In order for this acquired trait to be inherited by 100% of X's offspring, his mate must have the identical chromosomal makeup that X has. But this is a first, unique trait to X's species. Only way for a mate to X to likewise have the identical chromosomal makeup is cloning. And only opposite gender cloning is possible if it is a woman cloned from a man. (Take his X chromosome and duplicate/double it. Women do not have Y chromosomes).
This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2012 5:14 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by PaulK, posted 07-24-2012 2:16 AM PaulGL has not yet responded
 Message 133 by NoNukes, posted 07-25-2012 9:49 AM PaulGL has not yet responded

    
PaulGL
Member (Idle past 1002 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 127 of 136 (668753)
07-23-2012 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by greentwiga
07-20-2012 11:00 AM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
We are all descendants of, and genetically contained in, Adam. What he did, and its results in effect on human nature, are passed to all od his decendents. Pick up a newspaper: is man's basic nature good? Hardly. Could that be a result of what happened because of the Fall, which is written allegorically?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by greentwiga, posted 07-20-2012 11:00 AM greentwiga has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 07-23-2012 9:21 PM PaulGL has not yet responded
 Message 129 by Coyote, posted 07-23-2012 11:56 PM PaulGL has not yet responded
 Message 131 by PaulK, posted 07-24-2012 2:22 AM PaulGL has not yet responded
 Message 132 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2012 2:44 AM PaulGL has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29772
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 128 of 136 (668755)
07-23-2012 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by PaulGL
07-23-2012 9:16 PM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
As a Christian I need to point out to you that there is no Biblical support for a Fall and that there is overwhelming evidence that "Adam" exists only in fiction.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by PaulGL, posted 07-23-2012 9:16 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 129 of 136 (668758)
07-23-2012 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by PaulGL
07-23-2012 9:16 PM


Myths
We are all descendants of, and genetically contained in, Adam. What he did, and its results in effect on human nature, are passed to all od his decendents. Pick up a newspaper: is man's basic nature good? Hardly. Could that be a result of what happened because of the Fall, which is written allegorically?

As Jar has pointed out, Adam is an old tribal myth, as is "the fall."

Both are just as historically accurate as Romeo, i.e., not at all.

And as I pointed out many posts above, the idea of "the fall" and "original sin" and the inherently evil nature of mankind are themselves evil ideas, probably the most evil ideas ever conceived and foisted upon us by the fevered imaginations of our shaman class.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by PaulGL, posted 07-23-2012 9:16 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 130 of 136 (668761)
07-24-2012 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by PaulGL
07-23-2012 9:11 PM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
Look, we know it would be convenient, but that is NOT a reason to think that it happened. Now, do you have any evidence that such an event actually occurred ?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by PaulGL, posted 07-23-2012 9:11 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 131 of 136 (668762)
07-24-2012 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by PaulGL
07-23-2012 9:16 PM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
quote:

We are all descendants of, and genetically contained in, Adam. What he did, and its results in effect on human nature, are passed to all od his decendents.

The psychological effects of actions are not passed on genetically.

quote:

Pick up a newspaper: is man's basic nature good? Hardly. Could that be a result of what happened because of the Fall, which is written allegorically?

It's not exactly likely. It's far more likely to be the natural state of humanity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by PaulGL, posted 07-23-2012 9:16 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5243
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 132 of 136 (668763)
07-24-2012 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by PaulGL
07-23-2012 9:16 PM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
PaulG writes:


We are all descendants of, and genetically contained in, Adam.

We are not. In fact, genetics tells us that we are descended from ape-like ancestors. I'm sure I don't need to remind you that the bible also fails to mention genetics.

What he did, and its results in effect on human nature, are passed to all od his decendents.

Actions can't be passed to your descendants. Obviously.

Pick up a newspaper: is man's basic nature good? Hardly. Could that be a result of what happened because of the Fall, which is written allegorically?

Or could it be that man's nature is such that man wrote stories to explain it?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by PaulGL, posted 07-23-2012 9:16 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10120
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 133 of 136 (668867)
07-25-2012 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by PaulGL
07-23-2012 9:11 PM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
Okay: X trait genetically appears in species Y, by whatever process (mutation, natural selection, environmental change- whatever. In order for this acquired trait to be inherited by 100% of X's offspring, his mate must have the identical chromosomal makeup that X has. But this is a first, unique trait to X's species. Only way for a mate to X to likewise have the identical chromosomal makeup is cloning

There is no need for the trait to show up in 100 percent of the offspring. You require this only because you favor some allegory based on your interpretation of Genesis.

But evolution does not require all offspring to have trait X. If trait X is advantageous, offspring having the trait will have an advantage that leads to the trait propagating.

That is the objection that has been raised several times. I don't see any attempt on your part to address it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by PaulGL, posted 07-23-2012 9:11 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11847
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 134 of 136 (668873)
07-25-2012 12:52 PM


Did this thread ever get to the alleged Red Herring?
  
Evlreala
Member (Idle past 690 days)
Posts: 88
From: Portland, OR United States of America
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 135 of 136 (669092)
07-26-2012 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by PaulGL
07-23-2012 9:03 PM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
Animals have souls- scriptural. The parts/functions of sould are: Mind, emotion, and will. Animals choose according either of 2 criteria (flight or flight): namely their choices are made as a result of instinct or logic. Man, having a 'free will' is not bound to this and can come up with decisions which are not strictly the result of either influence.

So.. If I understand this correct, you are defining 'free will' as the ability to (or that which grants us the ability to) make decisions unbound by the influence of logic (rationality/reason) or instinct (fight/flight responce). Am I correct in my understanding?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by PaulGL, posted 07-23-2012 9:03 PM PaulGL has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by PaulGL, posted 07-30-2012 3:45 PM Evlreala has acknowledged this reply

    
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