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Author Topic:   The US Gov't is Guilty of Murder
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 318 (671981)
09-01-2012 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dogmafood
09-01-2012 9:26 AM


Are you a recognized Nation State?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dogmafood, posted 09-01-2012 9:26 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Dogmafood, posted 09-01-2012 9:43 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 10 of 318 (672020)
09-01-2012 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by fearandloathing
09-01-2012 6:22 PM


Re: A Thought on Drones
Sadly this ease of attacking our enemies has led to an increase in innocent deaths.
Is that the case?
Doesn't a directed low yield targeted strike endanger fewer innocents then any method in the past?
Isn't the targeted drone strike preferable to carpet bombing, long range artillery barrage, car bombs?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by fearandloathing, posted 09-01-2012 6:22 PM fearandloathing has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 318 (672025)
09-01-2012 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Tangle
09-01-2012 7:24 PM


I imagine the US would take action against any individual that they deemed a threat to do that.
I also imagine that the US would sanction any country that tried or seemed likely to try anything like that.
Unless of course, the US wanted that person killed and then getting some other country to actually commit the act provides plausible deniability.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Tangle, posted 09-01-2012 7:24 PM Tangle has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 318 (672028)
09-01-2012 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dogmafood
09-01-2012 9:43 PM


Yes.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 318 (672032)
09-01-2012 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dogmafood
09-01-2012 9:47 PM


Still I think that it is morally reprehensible and a huge loss to the integrity of the rule of law.
But legality has nothing to do with morality.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Dogmafood, posted 09-01-2012 9:47 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 21 of 318 (672035)
09-01-2012 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Dogmafood
09-01-2012 10:12 PM


Re: Morality
No, law is born of practicality. Morality is seldom involved.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 318 (672042)
09-02-2012 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dogmafood
09-02-2012 8:59 AM


Incomprehensible reasoning...
I don't see any double or even different standards being applied in your examples. The soldier in your example is charged with specifically targeting and killing someone who was not deemed an immediate threat.
How is that in anyway related to drone strikes?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Dogmafood, posted 09-02-2012 8:59 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Dogmafood, posted 09-02-2012 12:31 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 318 (672047)
09-02-2012 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dogmafood
09-02-2012 12:31 PM


Re: Incomprehensible reasoning...
No, I do not understand your point other than your seemingly totally misrepresenting the situations.
Scenario 1 — A soldier executes a dying man in the battlefield in a country that is in a state of occupation and near civil war. The man was absolutely going to dye and the defendant characterizes it as an act of mercy. He is accused of murder because he was not in immediate danger.
The actual situation is that the soldier is restricted in what he can and cannot do under rule of law. One thing he cannot do is commit a mercy killing.
Scenario 2 — A soldier executes a suspected militant and his family in a country not at war with anyone from 4000 miles away. The danger that is used to justify the killing is of a theoretical nature. He bears no responsibility for killing the 'militant' or the accidentally dispatched.
There is no theoretical nature involved. The target is identified and assigned and the soldier carried out the orders.
Sorry but I still see no correspondence between the two scenarios.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Dogmafood, posted 09-02-2012 12:31 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by NoNukes, posted 09-02-2012 10:11 PM jar has replied
 Message 37 by Dogmafood, posted 09-03-2012 9:25 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 318 (672074)
09-02-2012 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by NoNukes
09-02-2012 10:11 PM


Re: Incomprehensible reasoning...
But that is a misrepresentation of the situation.
When someone is targeted it is not because they might be some future danger, it is because they are a clear and present danger.
That is hardly theoretical.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by NoNukes, posted 09-02-2012 10:11 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 09-02-2012 10:32 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 318 (672076)
09-02-2012 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by NoNukes
09-02-2012 10:32 PM


Re: Incomprehensible reasoning...
Not "Orwellian" at all. The people targeted are targeted as I said, because they are a "clear and present danger".
They are targeted based on past behavior as well as continued current behavior.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 09-02-2012 10:32 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 09-02-2012 10:55 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 34 of 318 (672078)
09-02-2012 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
09-02-2012 10:55 PM


Re: Incomprehensible reasoning...
Too funny.
I did not exclude future harm, I said the decision was made based on them being a Clear and Present danger.
Nor do I know what the danger was in any specific drone attack, but since I also did not call for them that is irrelevant.
The point is that it is still not murder.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 09-02-2012 10:55 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 09-02-2012 11:17 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 40 of 318 (672099)
09-03-2012 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by NoNukes
09-02-2012 11:17 PM


Re: Incomprehensible reasoning...
Without even knowing anything about those who were killed.
The reason I know is that that is the standard our government set for authorizing such strikes.
What I do know is that I very much approve of such drone strikes and that I hope in the future we will develop even better methods of selective termination.
We are still trying to develop the new set of Rules of War, and so the questions like "What level of suspicion is required to justify killing uninvolved people in a country we are not at war with?" is a valid one, although not relevant to this topic.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 09-02-2012 11:17 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2012 9:59 AM jar has replied
 Message 45 by Dogmafood, posted 09-03-2012 10:12 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 318 (672100)
09-03-2012 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dogmafood
09-03-2012 9:25 AM


Re: Incomprehensible reasoning...
So what he should have said was that he thought the guy was going to get better and start shooting at him again at some future date. This then would be equal to the danger presented by a 'suspected militant'.
And also present enough evidence that was the case to sway the judge or jury.
Say you have an armed robber who has killed a couple of people and taken refuge in his house with his wife and children. By your line of reasoning it would be acceptable for the police to just blow up the whole house killing all the occupants because the criminal presented a danger.
That is not my line of reasoning and simply more misrepresentation of both the scenarios presented and my position.
Continuing to create false analogies does not help your position.
It is not legal at all, it is just expedient. Would it be legal to do it in the US? If Iran were to carry out an operation like these in the US it would be classified as terrorism. We would have no qualms about calling it murder. Herein lies the hypocrisy and the dishonest application of 'our' own laws.
Terrorism and murder are not synonymous just as killing and murder are not synonymous.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Dogmafood, posted 09-03-2012 9:25 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Dogmafood, posted 09-03-2012 10:11 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 43 of 318 (672102)
09-03-2012 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Tangle
09-03-2012 9:59 AM


Re: Incomprehensible reasoning...
No, that's not what I mean at all.
The current set of laws relating to wars are set around the concept of Nation State conflicts and the assumption that there is some governmental body that has both the rights and capabilities of ending a conflict.
When looking at terrorism that is not the case.
We are basically in our infancy in creating a set of Rules of War involving NGOs.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2012 9:59 AM Tangle has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 46 of 318 (672105)
09-03-2012 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Dogmafood
09-03-2012 10:11 AM


Re: Incomprehensible reasoning...
One is that one behavior is legal while the other is illegal.
Second is that your hostage scenario takes place in a nation under rule of law while the drone strike does not.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Dogmafood, posted 09-03-2012 10:11 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Dogmafood, posted 09-03-2012 10:54 AM jar has replied

  
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