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Author Topic:   The US Gov't is Guilty of Murder
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 4 of 318 (671987)
09-01-2012 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dogmafood
09-01-2012 9:26 AM


Dogmafood writes:
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? How is this not murder?
The overly simplistic answer is: because they were killed legally.
I guess that the whole thing is stupid because Pakistan seems to be ignoring the drone attacks for political reasons.
If Pakistan actively (rather than tacitly) supported these attacks then possibly these people could be arrested instead of killed.
But I also think that USA has found that drones are the method that costs the fewest American lives - and so (again for political reasons) they continue the drone attacks.
Do they risk killing innocents in the hope of ending a conflict? Of course.
IMO it is morally similar to Hiroshima/Nagasaki (but on a much smaller scale).
Granted, in Japan, they knew they would kill innocents.
In the Iraq war ~100,000 civilians were killed.
But only ~60,000 insurgents were killed.
And none of those insurgents had a trial.
How is this not murder? Because it was deemed to be a war.
A country is allowed to decide when it is at war and with whom.
This, in turn, exempts them from certain laws: they are allowed to kill people without a trial.
As usual, politics turns what would otherwise be a no-brainer (i.e. should we kill suspects?) into a moral quagmire of expediency and convenience.
DF writes:
The US Gov't is Guilty of Murder
I think that every government that goes to war is responsible for the undeserved deaths of 1000's of innocent people - including their own soldiers.
But 'murder' is a legal term which doesn't apply.
(I've had several mojitos and a smoke, so please forgive the lack of structure to my reply.)
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dogmafood, posted 09-01-2012 9:26 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by NoNukes, posted 09-01-2012 2:22 PM Panda has replied
 Message 17 by Dogmafood, posted 09-01-2012 9:47 PM Panda has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 6 of 318 (672000)
09-01-2012 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by NoNukes
09-01-2012 2:22 PM


Re: Potato?
NoNukes writes:
Let's ignore, for now, that equating the action with the nuking of Japan already renders the drone strikes morally ambiguous.
If you read my post you will see that I agree that it is morally ambiguous.
NoNukes writes:
I believe the drone attacks are morally distinguishable from the bombing of Hiroshima. I don't think the civilian casualties in Pakistan are intended to have any deterrent effect at all. In fact it is predictable and expcted that such strikes have the opposite result. Instead a judgment has been made that the lives of any innocent bystanders are insufficiently important to deter the use of drones in particular instances.
They are similar for that exact reason. When they balanced the consequences, civilian casualties were considered 'acceptable'.
The main difference is the scale of the deaths.
NoNukes writes:
Some actions taken in war are punished as war crimes and are illegal. For example, only a few people would argue that the well publicized killings by marines at Haditha did not include murders. Again, I recognize that this understanding is not universal.
As I said (emphasis added):
Panda writes:
This, in turn, exempts them from certain laws: they are allowed to kill people without a trial.
There are definitely war crimes - but you haven't shown that using drones is a war crime.
NoNukes writes:
I'd also suggest that relying on an American law definition of the term murder is highly inappropriate.
So, who's definition should we use then?
NoNukes writes:
So call it 'Red rum' if you must, but that still ducks the question of why there is no international outcry against the killing of civilians in drone attacks.
Perhaps because it is not considered to be murder by the majority of the international community?
.
All I see in your post is a distinction without a difference.
Could you explain why troops attacking a compound and accidentally killing civilians is not a war crime but drones attacking a compound and accidentally killing civilians is a war crime?

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by NoNukes, posted 09-01-2012 2:22 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by NoNukes, posted 09-01-2012 5:08 PM Panda has replied
 Message 8 by NoNukes, posted 09-01-2012 6:16 PM Panda has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 36 of 318 (672088)
09-03-2012 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by NoNukes
09-01-2012 5:08 PM


Re: Potato?
NoNukes writes:
But the discussion would be pointless if we could simply say, well there is a war going on as you did.
But we can say that - because it is true.
NoNukes writes:
The death's need not be considered murder to be determined unjust and to be avoided.
But the deaths do need to be considered murder for the government to be guilty of murder.
If you deem the deaths as unjust, then that is your own personal moral judgement - but that is not the same as murder.
IMO most of the deaths in wars are unjust, but that doesn't make governments guilty of murder.
And I ask again: who's definition of 'murder' should we use?
If 'murder' is the unlawful killing of someone, then we need to choose whose laws we are going to use.
Currently, according to most lawyers, America is in an armed conflict with militants in Pakistan and are therefore not committing murder.
Let's look again at the OP:
quote:
How did it become acceptable to go around executing people who we suspect to be 'militants'?
quote:
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? How is this not murder?
This is not worded as a criticism of the actual conflict itself - it is worded as a criticism of the methods used in that conflict.
And the answer to these questions is simple: because they are at war.
NoNukes writes:
But the discussion would be pointless if we could simply say, well there is a war going on as you did.
I agree.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by NoNukes, posted 09-01-2012 5:08 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Dogmafood, posted 09-03-2012 9:29 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 47 of 318 (672106)
09-03-2012 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dogmafood
09-03-2012 9:29 AM


Re: Potato?
Dogmafood writes:
So we have militants from Afghanistan who are taking refuge in Pakistan and the US (coalition) is engaging them there.
Yes. That seems to sum it up quite succinctly.
Dogmafood writes:
The problem is that the US is not at war with any particular state.
But they are at war with Afghani militants.
Dogmafood writes:
They claim to be at war with Afghanistan to gain the legal protection of being at war and then use those protections to go after individuals no matter where they are located. It's bullshit.
Countries don't 'claim' to be at war: they declare war.
And all democratic countries do this for the same reason: to change the laws that apply to their behaviour.
This allows them to invade countries and kill people without trial.
American is simply doing what every other democratic country has done - and it is not murder.
You might be shocked to learn that in 1943 Canada declared war on Germany and then sent troops to Italy to kill German soldiers without giving them a trial...

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Dogmafood, posted 09-03-2012 9:29 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Dogmafood, posted 09-03-2012 11:10 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 51 of 318 (672115)
09-03-2012 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dogmafood
09-03-2012 11:10 AM


Re: Potato?
Dogmafood writes:
Yeah not really a state are they?
Correct, but irrelevant.
quote:
War: A state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.
War in not only waged against states.
You might be shocked to learn that Canada fought in the Spanish Civil War.
Dogmafood writes:
we are not in imminent peril
Imminent peril is not a requirement for war.
You might be shocked to learn that Canada was not in imminent peril in 1943, but they still went to war with Germany.
Dogmafood writes:
these are not soldiers in uniform preparing to invade another country.
But they are enemy soldiers.
Countries kill enemy soldiers.
You might be shocked to learn that Canada also kills enemy soldiers.
Dogmafood writes:
This is claiming the protection of the rules of war under distinctly unwarlike conditions.
So, the war in Afghanistan is 'unwarlike'?
Which aspects of war do you feel it is lacking?

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Dogmafood, posted 09-03-2012 11:10 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Domino, posted 09-03-2012 12:50 PM Panda has replied
 Message 57 by Dogmafood, posted 09-04-2012 7:40 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 53 of 318 (672125)
09-03-2012 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Domino
09-03-2012 12:50 PM


Re: Potato?
Domino writes:
In 1943, countries around the globe were immersed in World War II. During WWII (and similarly in other large international conflicts, beginning with the First World War), many of the belligerent countries adopted the strategy of "total war." In effect, these countries' civilian populations became active in the war effort in addition to their military populations. Citizens worked in vehicle and munitions factories, governments issued propaganda, families bought war bonds, militaries targeted and invaded cities and towns, and sometimes citizens even mounted active resistance efforts in war zones. WWII, more than most other conflicts, was a war of all against all.
But, as I said, Canada was not under imminent peril.
Therefore, my point stands: imminent peril is not a prerequisite for war.
Domino writes:
The war on terrorist groups in and around the Middle East, however, is not a war of all against all. It is a war of the American military against select militant groups such as al-Qaeda.
I agree. America is at war.
Domino writes:
Countries like Pakistan and Yemen, much less their civilian populations, have by no means declared themselves as part of the conflict.
That is not a requirement for war.
Domino writes:
Thus, it is indeed "unwarlike" for the US to conduct drone strikes in non-belligerent countries with significant collateral damage to innocent bystanders and then to pass that damage off as a necessary cost of war.
America is not at war with a belligerent country: it is at war with belligerent militants.
And civilian casualties are unfortunately commonplace in war.
Domino writes:
Especially when the strikes are aimed at funerals and groups trying to rescue the dead.
I am suspicious of your linked web-page.
It claims: "The first confirmed attack on rescuers took place in North Waziristan on May 16 2009." but links to a page that doesn't even mention rescuers.
Considering the page is titled "Obama Terror Drones", I doubt their impartiality and their reliability.
I still don't see any reason not think that:
a) America is at war.
b) Accidentally killing civilians whilst at war is not murder.
.
All I have seen (by yourself and others) is a desperate struggle to somehow redefine 'war' so that America is NOT at war.
This would then allow people to categorise civilian deaths can as murder.
This is all the more puzzling when you admit that America is at war.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Domino, posted 09-03-2012 12:50 PM Domino has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Domino, posted 09-03-2012 3:05 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 56 of 318 (672145)
09-04-2012 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Domino
09-03-2012 3:05 PM


Re: Potato?
Domino writes:
I have seen this too, and I definitely agree with you that it is futile to fiddle with the definitions of "war" and "murder" and expect that this will lead to different conclusions on the issue at hand. America is at war, and the civilian deaths from drone strikes in the Middle East are a result of that war. But what I was trying to get across is that some civilian deaths are much less "necessary" than others.
I have never described civilian deaths as 'necessary'; it is simply the unavoidable consequence of using ordnance in an uncontrolled environment.
Domino writes:
Take this recent example of an airstrike in Afghanistan. The NATO officials who called the strike were under fire from insurgents while on patrol in a combat zone, and the target of the airstrike was the insurgents in question, not the three shopkeepers who died during the bombardment. This example seems to me to exemplify what you are referring to as necessary civilian deaths during war.
No, not 'necessary': unavoidable in any practical sense during a war.
But yes, they look like the kind of accidental deaths normally associated with a military strike.
Domino writes:
Now take this example of another airstrike by the US, this time in Yemen. Nine people were killed, one of them a 16-year-old American citizen. None of the victims seem to have been major militant targets (the fact that the 16-year-old boy was the son of an al-Qaeda member does not qualify)
Could you provide a list of who these 9 people were, so that I can try and confirm that they were not militant targets?
Domino writes:
furthermore, they were killed in a country with which the US is not at war, in a situation that did not involve any active combat.
"a situation that did not involve any active combat." Really? Then how were they killed?
Militants in Yemen are an established target - remember: America is at war with the militants, not the country - like in Pakistan.
And it was not a one-off strike, it was part of a campaign.
From how you describe it, it was just a random killing in a random country.
But that is far from being the case.
Domino writes:
Of course, these two cases are far from representative from the majority of civilian casualties due to drone strikes, but they reveal that not every civilian casualty is alike. I simply wanted to show how "accidentally killing civilians whilst at war" is a broad description for an action that cannot be quickly justified without deeper investigation.
And does further investigation shows that the killing of civilians was intentional?
Was the American government guilty of murder?
Domino writes:
Here is a more reliable source that gives the same information.
But that is an article about the article I questioned the credibility of.
All you have done is linked to a web-page higher up the pile.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Domino, posted 09-03-2012 3:05 PM Domino has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Domino, posted 09-05-2012 12:27 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 59 of 318 (672164)
09-04-2012 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dogmafood
09-04-2012 7:40 AM


Murder By Death
America is at war.
Soldiers killing soldiers - while at war - is not murder.
Soldiers accidentally killing civilians - while at war - is not murder.
All you have done so far is try to change the meaning of words so that your claim is true.
You can claim that the war is not war-like.
You can claim that murder is not a legal term.
You can claim that CIA aren't soldiers.
You can claim that wars are only between countries.
You can claim that good countries insist on 'imminent threat' before going to war.
But none of your claims are supported.
They are just baseless assertions and equivocations - or as you say: bullshit.
Let's go back to the actual topic:
Since we seem to agree with the definition of war I provided, I will ask for the 3rd time:
"Who's definition of 'murder' should we use?"
Please define 'murder' for me, so that I understand what you are accusing the Americans of.
Is this definition good enough for you?
quote:
Murder: The unlawful killing of one human being by another.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Dogmafood, posted 09-04-2012 7:40 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Dogmafood, posted 09-04-2012 1:10 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 88 of 318 (672254)
09-05-2012 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dogmafood
09-04-2012 1:10 PM


Re: Murder By Death
Dogmafood writes:
Alright, I will then.
Repeating your baseless claim is stupid.
But since that is all you have, I guess you have no other option.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
Dogmafood writes:
Panda writes:
quote:
Murder: The unlawful killing of one human being by another.
Is this definition good enough for you?
Yes that's the one.
Good.
And according to International and American law, the deaths are not murder.
And that explains "why there is no international outcry against the killing of civilians in drone attacks."
<\thread>
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dogmafood, posted 09-04-2012 1:10 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 90 of 318 (672257)
09-05-2012 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Domino
09-05-2012 12:27 AM


Re: Potato?
Domino writes:
...the discussion of whether America's actions constitute murder is not necessarily related to the discussion of whether America's actions are justified.
I agree.
Murder is reasonable easy to ascertain.
But the problem with justification is that it is subjective.
America only needs to justify its behaviour to its voting public and selected international communities.
It is also impossible for America to make everyone happy.
Some people will claim that going to war is reprehensible and some people will claim that not going to war is reprehensible.
Personally, I am undecided about whether the war is justified. There are good and bad aspects to the war.
But the necessary secrecy of military operations, the politically driven secrecy of governments and the anti-American propaganda means I will probably never be able to decide one way or another.
Domino writes:
That being the case, let me briefly venture into the hypothetical. Suppose the US government originally launched the strike with the intent to kill the 16-year-old as well, thinking he was an al-Qaeda operative, but later found out that he was an innocent American citizen. Would this change the picture at all? It would certainly qualify the killing of the civilian as somewhat premeditated. Although the particular case of al-Banna and al-Awlaki does not resemble this hypothetical scenario, I imagine that other civilians may have been mistaken for militants and subsequently killed in this way before.
Killing people based on faulty intelligence happens frequently in all wars.
I doubt that '100% accurate intelligence' actually exists.
Finding out that the attack was based on false information would not make it murder.
As I am sure you know, time makes fools of us all.
quote:
Hindsight is not only clearer than perception-in-the-moment but also unfair to those who actually lived through the moment.
EDWIN S. SHNEIDMAN, Autopsy of a Suicidal Mind

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Domino, posted 09-05-2012 12:27 AM Domino has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Domino, posted 09-06-2012 7:27 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 93 of 318 (672295)
09-06-2012 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Domino
09-06-2012 7:27 AM


Re: Potato?
Domino writes:
An objective truth such as whether a certain term such as "murder" applies to a certain action is not always very enlightening. A convincing reason why said action is unjust or unnecessary is much more enlightening.
The problem with debating the justification is that it will probably end up with 2 opposing opinions that are unable to be reconciled due to the opinions being subjective.
It is like art. There is no good or bad art: only art you like and art you don't like.
The best you can do with a differing personal opinion is say "I can understand why you think that."
Domino writes:
Unfortunately, though, mistakes are mistakes. I'm sure that soldier who committed the mercy killing on the battlefield wished in hindsight that he hadn't, and maybe even saw in hindsight why what he did was wrong, but his penalty stood nonetheless. So should the accusations against those who target civilians, regardless of how they explain their actions afterwards.
If they had targeted civilians then I would expect it to be considered a war crime.
But you have not shown that civilians were targeted.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Domino, posted 09-06-2012 7:27 AM Domino has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 97 of 318 (672309)
09-06-2012 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by caffeine
09-06-2012 8:45 AM


Re: Slippery slopes
caffeine writes:
However, they have been used for a vast range of things that police and local councils consider annoying. Mobile soup kitchens were banned from feeding the homeless in Manchester; homeless people have been banned from begging in an 'earnest or humble way'; a girl was banned from spitting in public (and jailed when she broke her ASBO's terms; a woman who attempted suicide several times was banned from high bridges; an alcoholic was banned from entering pubs or carrying alcohol in public; a woman was banned from answering the door in her underwear or sunbathing naked in her own garden - this list could go on for quite a while.
Some of those examples are either not true or taken out of context.
i.e.
Mobile soup kitchens were banned from feeding the homeless in Manchester...
Not true.
a girl was banned from spitting in public and jailed when she broke her ASBO's terms...
"She became extremely upset in the courtroom and ended up throwing water over the Group 4 officer and spitting at a magistrate. She was remanded in custody and charged with new offences."
an alcoholic was banned from entering pubs or carrying alcohol in public...
"At 15 she was expelled from school for repeated truancy and disruptiveness. But being home-schooled only increased the opportunities to hit the bottle. During her time as an alcoholic, Laura calculates that she was drinking about 150 units of alcohol a week."
a woman was banned from answering the door in her underwear...
"The ASBO also banned her from making noise, shouting and swearing, holding drunken parties, abusing neighbours and letting pals use her garden as a toilet."
Just sayin'...

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by caffeine, posted 09-06-2012 8:45 AM caffeine has seen this message but not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 125 of 318 (672798)
09-11-2012 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by dronestar
09-11-2012 12:41 PM


Re: As long as humans remain uncivilized
dronester writes:
And it will continue when bad men support war criminals
Thank goodness that no-one here is supporting war criminals then.
We haven't even mentioned any, from what I remember - so you can rest, contented that no-one here is supporting war criminals.
/pat
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by dronestar, posted 09-11-2012 12:41 PM dronestar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by onifre, posted 09-12-2012 2:54 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 131 of 318 (672857)
09-11-2012 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Dogmafood
09-11-2012 10:07 PM


Re: Jurisdiction
Dogmafood writes:
Make killing people by accident illegal.
So, you are advocating the bizarre position of intentional deaths being legal and accidental deaths being illegal.
And how exactly should soldiers ensure that they completely avoid accidental deaths?
Because, unless you can guarantee a way to avoid unexpected deaths, no soldier could risk going into battle.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Dogmafood, posted 09-11-2012 10:07 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Dogmafood, posted 09-11-2012 10:48 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 135 of 318 (672873)
09-12-2012 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Dogmafood
09-11-2012 10:48 PM


Re: Jurisdiction
Dogmafood writes:
Well you have your natural accidents like getting run over by a truck and you have your unnatural accidents like getting blown up by a missile.
Perhaps you could give definitions of 'natural accident' and 'unnatural accident', since you have made up these terms to try and support your crazy ideas.
Or is it just a distinction without a difference: "A distinction without a difference is a type of argument where one word or phrase is preferred to another, but results in no difference to the argument as a whole."
Dogmafood writes:
I would suggest baby steps but I like your vision.
You think the developed world should disband its armies?
You think that would be a good thing??
Your responses lack anything beyond naive knee-jerk reactions.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Dogmafood, posted 09-11-2012 10:48 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Dogmafood, posted 09-12-2012 8:29 AM Panda has replied

  
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