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Author Topic:   faith based science?
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 91 of 171 (677275)
10-28-2012 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by NoNukes
10-28-2012 2:11 AM


Nuke, is that entity you call space-time a physical object that is literally curved like a shapely breast or is it just that you have no idea what you are talking about?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by NoNukes, posted 10-28-2012 2:11 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by nwr, posted 10-28-2012 11:15 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5531
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 92 of 171 (677276)
10-28-2012 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-28-2012 11:06 PM


Nuke, is that entity you call space-time a physical object that is literally curved like a shapely breast or is it just that you have no idea what you are talking about?

I suspect that this disagreement is all about the meaning of "physical".

I'll offer the meanings that I use:

  • material: made of matter - roughly speaking, made of atoms.
  • physical: studied by physicists - this includes space-time, it includes fields (gravitational fields, electromagnetic fields, etc), and it includes photons, as well as matter.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-28-2012 11:06 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 11:46 PM nwr has responded
 Message 94 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-28-2012 11:47 PM nwr has responded

  
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 880
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 93 of 171 (677277)
10-28-2012 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by nwr
10-28-2012 11:15 PM


everything except for space time is either an area over which a force acts or a manifestation of energy. If space time is neither of these then how could it be considered physical?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by nwr, posted 10-28-2012 11:15 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by nwr, posted 10-28-2012 11:53 PM foreveryoung has responded

    
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 94 of 171 (677278)
10-28-2012 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by nwr
10-28-2012 11:15 PM


I understand that, NWR, but those given by you are all examples of mathematical objects. For instance, all that space-time really is a co-ordinate map of motion of objects. Fields are a bunch of vectors, tensors and suchlike with magnitudes, scalars and so on. All that represents relative directions of motions of physical objects and imaginary forces supposedly acting at a distance for mysterious reasons. Itineraries of moving bodies. The same maps and no hint at any territory.

Attributing to any of those mathematical objects causal powers and physical properties such as an ability to bend or stretch is cheating and abuse of language. It is cheating because no causes are explained at all and the public is left to clap and imitate comprehension. Highly pernicious because the pretence at understanding nips in the bud any attempt to look for the causes unexplained.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by nwr, posted 10-28-2012 11:15 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
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foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 880
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 95 of 171 (677279)
10-28-2012 11:48 PM


anti-fundamentalism: the anti traditional american, fake christian branch of weak atheism.

Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by nwr, posted 10-28-2012 11:59 PM foreveryoung has acknowledged this reply
 Message 111 by Larni, posted 10-29-2012 10:02 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
nwr
Member
Posts: 5531
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 96 of 171 (677280)
10-28-2012 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by foreveryoung
10-28-2012 11:46 PM


foreveryoung writes:
... then how could it be considered physical?

If it is studied by physics, then it is physical.

That, at least, is how I am using the term. It is widely understood that "physical" encompasses more than does "material."


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 11:46 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 12:15 AM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5531
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 97 of 171 (677281)
10-28-2012 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-28-2012 11:47 PM


Alfred Maddenstein writes:
..., but those given by you are all examples of mathematical objects.

I am not interested in engaging myself in this particular "argument".

I am just pointing out where the real disagreement lies. As best I can tell, both sides are talking past one another. So the whole "argument" seems pointless.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-28-2012 11:47 PM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5531
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


(1)
Message 98 of 171 (677282)
10-28-2012 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by foreveryoung
10-28-2012 11:48 PM


Don't debate signatures
foreveryoung writes:
anti-fundamentalism: the anti traditional american, fake christian branch of weak atheism.

You could put that into your own forum signature, if you wanted to. But it is rather silly to try to debate signatures.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 11:48 PM foreveryoung has acknowledged this reply

  
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 880
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 99 of 171 (677283)
10-29-2012 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by nwr
10-28-2012 11:53 PM


But is physics studying merely a mathematical abstraction or something they can prove interacts with the world of matter and energy?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by nwr, posted 10-28-2012 11:53 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by NoNukes, posted 10-29-2012 12:27 AM foreveryoung has responded
 Message 113 by Taq, posted 10-29-2012 3:00 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 171 (677285)
10-29-2012 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 12:15 AM


But is physics studying merely a mathematical abstraction or something they can prove interacts with the world of matter and energy?

How would you characterize concepts such as velocity, momentum, or acceleration? Those things are neither matter or energy. They are not objects. Are they real or just mathematical abstractions?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 12:15 AM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 12:39 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 103 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-29-2012 1:21 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 880
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 101 of 171 (677286)
10-29-2012 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by NoNukes
10-29-2012 12:27 AM


Acceleration and velocity are manifestations of energy. Momentum is a manifestation of mass or vice versa really. What is "space time" a manifestation of ?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by NoNukes, posted 10-29-2012 12:27 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by NoNukes, posted 10-29-2012 1:10 AM foreveryoung has responded
 Message 109 by PaulK, posted 10-29-2012 2:46 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 171 (677291)
10-29-2012 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 12:39 AM


Acceleration and velocity are manifestations of energy.

Manifestation of energy. I don't think so, but then I don't know what a manifestation is. Certainly we can have energy without having acceleration or velocity.

Velocity is displacement over time. Acceleration is the derivative of velocity. These are quantities with purely mathematical definitions.

Momentum is a manifestation of mass or vice versa really.

Well no.

Momentum is a quantity of motion. But what's that? Momentum is a mathematical quantity that turns out to be conserved when there is no outside forces acting on a system. Objects with no mass at all have momentum which I guess means that momentum is not a manifestation of mass. I guess because I don't know what manifestation means in this context.

Similarly the topology of space-time determines the trajectory of ordinary everyday objects. In what sense is space-time curvature not affected by or not affecting matter and energy? Are trajectories real or mere mathematics?

What is "space time" a manifestation of ?

Perhaps I can answer that after you tell me what a manifestation is.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 12:39 AM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 1:28 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


(1)
Message 103 of 171 (677292)
10-29-2012 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by NoNukes
10-29-2012 12:27 AM


Bill was asked in one of his hubs what would have happened if chemistry was done in the fashion the mathematical physics is.
His answer was: "Scary. They could have reactions between concepts."
Like a kilo of acidity meeting a vector of fluidity to result in a mole of bonding.

Edited by Alfred Maddenstein, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by NoNukes, posted 10-29-2012 12:27 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 880
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 104 of 171 (677293)
10-29-2012 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by NoNukes
10-29-2012 1:10 AM


nonukes writes:

Manifestation of energy. I don't think so, but then I don't know what a manifestation is. Certainly we can have energy without having acceleration or velocity.

Velocity is displacement over time. Acceleration is the derivative of velocity. These are quantities with purely mathematical definitions.

But neither one exists without energy. It is energy that produces displacement over time and acceleration.

no nukes writes:

Momentum is a quantity of motion. But what's that? Momentum is a mathematical quantity that turns out to be conserved when there is no outside forces acting on a system. Objects with no mass at all have momentum which I guess means that momentum is not a manifestation of mass. I guess because I don't know what manifestation means in this context.

Momentum is a meaningless concept without there being mass involved. It is the momentum of a particle that gives it it's mass. If a particle with no mass has a measure of momentum then you have either incorrectly defined momentum or mass or both.

no nukes writes:

Perhaps I can answer that after you tell me what a manifestation is.

Velocity is one way that energy is applied so as to be able to be detected. Acceleration is another way. Gravitational force is a way that energy and matter are applied together so that they can be detected. To make something manifest is to make it detectable in a physical way.

Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by NoNukes, posted 10-29-2012 1:10 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by NoNukes, posted 10-29-2012 1:33 AM foreveryoung has responded
 Message 108 by NoNukes, posted 10-29-2012 1:52 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded
 Message 110 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-29-2012 4:47 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded
 Message 112 by subbie, posted 10-29-2012 10:19 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 171 (677294)
10-29-2012 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 1:28 AM


But neither one exists without energy. It is energy that produces displacement over time and acceleration.

Similarly, energy and matter produce space-time curvature. Yet you seem to be arguing that space-time curvature is not a manifestation of energy and matter. You are silent about whether trajectories through space-time are real.

I still don't understand why velocity is a manifestation of energy. Energy can cause objects to move. Is that all that is required to be a manifestation? Just some link between the two concepts?

And what about momentum and mass. Why don't massless particles with momentum mean that momentum is not a manifestation of mass. We can have mass without momentum and momentum without mass.

In short, I don't understand why your "manifestation" test is meaningful.

Momentum is a meaningless concept without there being mass involved. It is the momentum of a particle that gives it it's mass. If a particle with no mass has a measure of momentum then you have either incorrectly defined momentum or mass or both.

Absolutely wrong. Photons are massless and yet have energy and momentum. The sum of momentum along with that of the other involved particles is conserved in indisputably physical interactions such as pair production (generation of electron-positron pair from electromagnetic radiation), Compton scattering, and the production of Bremsstrahlung radiation.

Edited by NoNukes, : Address momentum idea.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 1:28 AM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 1:37 AM NoNukes has responded

  
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