A Skillful Morality

A new member, Sombra, has introduced a new idea for a moral system including Skillful and Unskillful actions instead of Good vs Bad.
There's some discussion in the Christianity is Morally Bankrupt thread (starting at Message 247), but it's starting to focus more on Sombra's system and less on the morality of Christianity.So, I thought I would make a nice, new, shiny thread to talk about Sombra's Skillful Morality system.Hello Sombra, welcome to EvC!
It's fun here, and we're pretty much able to talk about anything. We do try to keep topics focused, though... that way the board stays organized if anyone wants to search through things later. I wanted to ask some questions about your moral system, so I created this thread in order to do so.First, I think it would be best if Sombra was able to give a description of what he generally means with the words "Skillful" and "Unskillful" in the context of his moral system.From Message 249: So, an action is either skillful or unskillful?What about something like opening a door for a blind man? Is this skillful or unskillful?
Does it change depending on if the blind man thanks you for the help, or curses you out for not letting him do things for himself?
Does the happiness or suffering for you outweigh the happiness or suffering for others? Or is it the other way around?As for the forum this thread should be in:
Either "Social Issues and Creation/Evolution" because this is a "Social Issue" (but isn't really about Creation/Evolution)
Or "Faith & Belief" because all moral systems are basically taken on Faith & Belief.

Thanks for the in-depth reply.Unfortunately, I've caught a case of bad-timing with this thread proposal.
I'm actually heading out of the country for the next two weeks, so I won't have time to respond for a while.The nice thing about discussion boards is that they don't disappear, though :So, sorry for making you wait, but I won't have a reply any time soon.

A very nice explanation, thank-you.I would like to think about it more as I do not think I've had time to digest and fully understand your view.
But I also wanted to put in a quick reply as well.My concern is that your system seems to tell other people what their motivation is in life.
From what I can tell, I would agree that your system is accurate for a lot of people.
But people tend to be different.
We all have different thoughts and feelings.
Some of us even have different thought processes.It's phrases like this that worry me: What if our real goal is not to eliminate suffering?
What if I actually am interested in "right" and "wrong" or "the truth"?I tried to read through your explanation, but I see it as more of a generalization on how you perceive most people to act.But it's very difficult to ascertain what another person's motivation actually is.
Especially when it's possible for them to have multiple motivations.Let's just take the simple example of opening a door for a blind man again.You gave a few possible motivations yourself:
-doing it out of greed
-doing it in order to help
-doing it because you happened to be there (accidentally)
...there are others as well.I understand how it's possible for you to attach each and every one of these to "eliminating suffering" in some way.That is, if we opened the door "in order to help" we can say we wanted to help in order to "eliminate the suffering of the blind man" in some minute way. Or possibly even to gain a "good feeling" in ourselves to help eliminate some suffering in our own mind as well.
...and I will fully agree that this is a possibility.But it's one thing to say it's possible because we can think of a pathway.
It's another thing to say that it's what is happening... just because we can think of a pathway.I personally find it best to leave motivations out of the whole thing.
Who cares what the motivation for the action was other than the individual anyway? Then, if the individual is concerned about their motivation... then they can do an honest self-evaluation and look into that on their own at any time. I think this is a flaw. Why do you think the blind man is deluded?
What makes me opening the door "not-deluded" and the blind man cursing me "deluded"?Perhaps the blind man cursed me because he enjoys cursing at other people. Then I can sort of see your point.
But... what if the blind man cursed me because his one joy in life is still to do some things for himself even though he is blind. What if the blind man's favourite thing is to figure out how to open doors for himself and overcome his blindness and assert his independence and boost his self-confidence? What is deluded about that?Let's say we do have a blind man that likes to open his own doors for himself.
...and, because you say that me opening the door for him is "always skillful"... I then open the door for him all the time. Now he never gets to open a door for himself....are you sure this is a "skillful" scenario?
Wouldn't it be better to learn that the blind man didn't like me opening doors for him... and then to stop opening the door for this particular blind man?Perhaps the morality of a situation cannot be determined by the actions taken... because people are different and can react to the same actions differently for a multitude of various, acceptable reasons.
Perhaps the morality of a situation should be determined by the specific results of the actions on the specific individuals that were affected?I think it should, anyway.

I completely agree with you.
Once you think your system is valid, your system itself seems very objective and not very faith-based at all.
My own personal system is very similar in that regard.My point is that the choice to accept your system as valid is subjective. Or, very loosely translated... "faith based."This subjective choice overlays any and all moral systems.
Even a 100% objective moral system written in the clouds for all to see by God Himself... would still have to be subjectively accepted as "valid" by each and every individual....that's why all moral systems are essentially taken on Faith & Belief.

The possibility of some flaws will depend on your own motivation for this system of morality.
Do you intend to convince others that this moral system should be used by everyone? Or is it just a moral system that you think is very good for you, personally?If you think it should be for everyone... then I don't think it'll work. Not much works for everyone. People can get pretty different.If you think it's just for you... and also "anyone else who happens to agree with it"... then that in itself removes a whole lot of possible flaws. Are you sure this must be true?
I am interested in morality, but my real goal is not to eliminate suffering.
My goal is for me to help people instead of hurt people while I am interacting with them.
You could say that this is similar to "reducing suffering"... but I accept "suffering" to be a part of this world we find ourselves in. Sometimes shit happens that we do not control that causes suffering. I do not think it's possible to eliminate suffering. Therefore, my real goal is not to eliminate suffering... but I am still interested in morality.Is your phrase in error?
Or do you think I am in error? Why does it matter if an individual is "totally responsible" for the result of any action?
To me, I don't care if I'm responsible for a result or not.
If I make a decision, and do an action that affects another person... then I want to know if that person was helped, hurt or didn't care. Then, I can alter my actions accordingly in order to help more.The result is equally as important as the motivation.
Without knowing the result... you have no idea if your motivation helped you to be skillful or not.
Without a good or skillful motivation... you likely are not going to be producing good or skillful results. Here you're talking about how important the intention is... but what does it lead to? It leads to asking about the result of the action in order to gain the necessary information to know if your action is following your intentions.Actions need to be monitored.
Intentions need to be monitored.
Results need to be monitored.They are all equally important parts to the "moral-system" puzzle.
Without obtaining the results of the actions, you will never know if your intentions are influencing your actions in the way you would like them to or not.Without that knowledge... your moral decisions become stagnant... never changing because you are never getting any feedback on if your actions are actually following your intentions or not. Then, you can end up with intentions that are not leading you down the path you actually want to be on, and possibly even leading you down the opposite path that you want to be on.
"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"
-Anonymous(?)Having good/skillful intentions is an excellent theory.
However... all theories need to be measured against practical results in order to verify their effectiveness.I also have another question for you:What is the purpose of your moral system?That is... the purpose of my moral system is to "help other people as much as possible and hurt other people as minimally as possible."
I am getting the impression that the purpose of your moral system is "personal happiness" or "personal growth in the direction of being a very skillful person" or something like that.Is that correct?