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Author Topic:   Is String Theory Supernatural?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5053
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 121 of 181 (698667)
05-08-2013 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by NoNukes
05-08-2013 5:18 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
NoNukes writes:

But I don't consider Faith's beliefs to a baseline to measure whether someone's interpretation of the Bible is improper or subjective.

And neither do I.

I don't see how using liberal in such a way isn't a judgement on GDR's beliefs.

It is.

You seem to be pushing against an open door.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by NoNukes, posted 05-08-2013 5:18 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 122 of 181 (698697)
05-08-2013 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Straggler
05-08-2013 8:48 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
But how can science inform one's belief in miracles?

You are assuming that science shapes all his beliefs. I'm not so sure this is the case. If it was then he wouldn't be a theist, would he.

I can see where science has informed him of evolution and thus, in his view, of his god's use of evolution to create humans. I can see where science has informed him of cosmology which he takes as his god's method to construct a universe.

He professes a belief in the miracle resurrection of some long ago jew in long ago Palestine and professes a belief in some magical miracle of eternal life if he pushes the right buttons and doesn't PO the big boss, but I have no idea how anything in science could have anything to do with these beliefs.

Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

Of course. He is, after all, a theist.

I understand the attempt to reconcile one's theistic beliefs with science. I just don't think it works. They are not 'congruent'.

Not in all things, I agree. But in GDR's case it appears that he accepts the information science has to offer in cosmology, evolution, the world-wide flud, a way-old earth and other realities to which a lot of other theists plug their ears. To his credit.

But that still leaves a disconnect between accepting the science in some aspects but not in others. But, then again, he is a theist and the complete reality is sacrilege to such philosophies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Straggler, posted 05-08-2013 8:48 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Straggler, posted 05-09-2013 8:37 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 123 of 181 (698698)
05-08-2013 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Straggler
05-08-2013 8:48 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
Furthermore (and to get vaguely back on topic) if the parallel universes suggested by theoretical physicists as being responsible for the gravitational effects attributed to dark matter are the supernatural dwelling place of God (AKA heaven) then physicists are effectively positing supernatural realms as potential answers to observable phenomena.

First of all, you have to find an M-theorist who actually believes this crap about some heaven in the universe of brane-worlds. Then we'll talk.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Straggler, posted 05-08-2013 8:48 AM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by GDR, posted 05-09-2013 12:16 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 124 of 181 (698704)
05-09-2013 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by AZPaul3
05-08-2013 11:11 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
AZPaul3 writes:

First of all, you have to find an M-theorist who actually believes this crap about some heaven in the universe of brane-worlds. Then we'll talk.

Actually I don't see it that way at all. All any scientist should do is look for the truth without any preconceived notion, be they theistic or atheistic.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2013 11:11 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by AZPaul3, posted 05-09-2013 1:05 AM GDR has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 125 of 181 (698708)
05-09-2013 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by GDR
05-09-2013 12:16 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
Actually I don't see it that way at all. All any scientist should do is look for the truth without any preconceived notion, be they theistic or atheistic.

Oh, I agree most assuredly. So this most egregious speculation within what can at best be described as a weak hypothesis is totally inappropriate.

In more plain language ... it's crap.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by GDR, posted 05-09-2013 12:16 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by GDR, posted 05-09-2013 1:47 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 126 of 181 (698710)
05-09-2013 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by AZPaul3
05-09-2013 1:05 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
AZPaul3 writes:

Oh, I agree most assuredly. So this most egregious speculation within what can at best be described as a weak hypothesis is totally inappropriate.
In more plain language ... it's crap.

Why? I'm just saying that science should go wherever the evidence leads, without preconceived ideas. What scientist would ever have even come close to guessing the world as depicted by relativity and QM at the turn of the 20th century?


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by AZPaul3, posted 05-09-2013 1:05 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by AZPaul3, posted 05-09-2013 3:08 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(1)
Message 127 of 181 (698722)
05-09-2013 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by GDR
05-09-2013 1:47 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
Why? I'm just saying that science should go wherever the evidence leads, without preconceived ideas.

And I agree. Further I say this speculation on some "Heaven in another brane-world" is a preconceived idea that has no place on the table.

Relativity and Quantum Theory certainly did not initially give rise to speculations on some god's holy heaven in sub-nano meter space. Why should we now speculate on some god's holy heaven in the warped passages of brane-worlds?

Speculations are fine. Some of our best technologies and ideas began as speculations: transistors, integrated circuits, plate tectonics, GPS, cell phones. But there are always underlying realities that hint at the possibility in the speculation. This god's heaven crap is nothing more than wishful thinking based upon an emotional need. There is no underlying reality that could possibly hint at such a speculation. Until there is a more realistic underpinning to M-theory's brane-world hypothesis, and some realistic underpinning to the concept of a god, let alone some heaven for it to live in, then the speculation is unfounded, inappropriate and just plain crap.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by GDR, posted 05-09-2013 1:47 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 128 of 181 (698737)
05-09-2013 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by AZPaul3
05-08-2013 11:05 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
AZ writes:

First of all, you have to find an M-theorist who actually believes this crap about some heaven in the universe of brane-worlds.

I have never seen anyone but GDR ever suggest such a thing. I doubt any M-theorist would give this notion any credence at all. But it is this suggestion that prompted this thread.

AZ writes:

You are assuming that science shapes all his beliefs.

I'm questioning the claim that the beliefs in question are 'congruent' with science.

A belief in miracles isn't 'congruent' with science. Nor is the notion that a brane-world equals God's supernatiral dwelling place.

AZ writes:

But that still leaves a disconnect between accepting the science in some aspects but not in others.

Some aspects are 'congruent'. And some aspects are not. So overall the theistic beliefs in question are not 'congruent' with science.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2013 11:05 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by GDR, posted 05-09-2013 10:32 AM Straggler has responded
 Message 130 by AZPaul3, posted 05-09-2013 1:25 PM Straggler has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 129 of 181 (698756)
05-09-2013 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Straggler
05-09-2013 8:37 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
Straggler writes:

A belief in miracles isn't 'congruent' with science. Nor is the notion that a brane-world equals God's supernatiral dwelling place.

I don't disagree. My general point is broader than that. All I'm saying is that science theorizes about other dimensions or universes. I wasn't tying my speculations to any one particular theory.

It is just that Christianity talks about God being eternal and in some way being connected and even intervening with our world. It sounds very much like an interconnected universe and/or other dimensions of our own universe.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Straggler, posted 05-09-2013 8:37 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Straggler, posted 05-09-2013 2:45 PM GDR has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 130 of 181 (698777)
05-09-2013 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Straggler
05-09-2013 8:37 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
So overall the theistic beliefs in question are not 'congruent' with science.

As you said, in some aspects they are, in some they are not. From a big picture perspective, an all inclusive view, then ... in some aspects they are, in some they are not.

Are GDR's beliefs congruent with science? In some aspects they are, in some they are not.

I really don't feel like engaging in a semantical quibble so I will yield to the gentleman from London ... who is probably right anyway.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Straggler, posted 05-09-2013 8:37 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Straggler, posted 05-09-2013 2:38 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 131 of 181 (698790)
05-09-2013 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by AZPaul3
05-09-2013 1:25 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
AZ writes:

Are GDR's beliefs congruent with science? In some aspects they are, in some they are not.

Some aspects of that which biblical literalists believe are 'congruent' with science. Most however are not.

That some aspects are 'congruent with science' could be said of pretty much any belief at all no matter how crazy or divorced from reality. So that provides little justification for anything.

The fact is that GDR is eloquent, articulate, reasonable, well respected and generally speaking an all round good egg who holds theistic beliefs of the sort that probably inspire more good than bad. I like debating with him and think he's one of the best posters here. So I have no desire to diss him or his beliefs personally.

But the theistic beliefs in question (e.g. belief in miracles) are not 'congruent' with science no matter how it is spun. And this is obviously going to be pointed out in response to the claim that one's beliefs are 'congruent' with science.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by AZPaul3, posted 05-09-2013 1:25 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 132 of 181 (698791)
05-09-2013 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by GDR
05-09-2013 10:32 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
GDR writes:

My general point is broader than that. All I'm saying is that science theorizes about other dimensions or universes.

It does indeed.

GDR writes:

It is just that Christianity talks about God being eternal and in some way being connected and even intervening with our world. It sounds very much like an interconnected universe and/or other dimensions of our own universe.

But does it? If you start from the unwavering assumption that God exists in some mysterious realm that is somehow "interconnected" then I suppose I can see how one might bend over backwards enough to start conflating Kaluza Klein Dimensions or Brane Worlds with some sort of notion of heaven.

But there is no more evidential justification for considering these same theoretical physics speculations as suggestive of the actual existence of Narnia (for example).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by GDR, posted 05-09-2013 10:32 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by GDR, posted 05-09-2013 7:36 PM Straggler has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 133 of 181 (698829)
05-09-2013 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Straggler
05-09-2013 2:45 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Straggler writes:

But does it? If you start from the unwavering assumption that God exists in some mysterious realm that is somehow "interconnected" then I suppose I can see how one might bend over backwards enough to start conflating Kaluza Klein Dimensions or Brane Worlds with some sort of notion of heaven.

But there is no more evidential justification for considering these same theoretical physics speculations as suggestive of the actual existence of Narnia (for example).

Again I don't disagree with that. Mind you it could be because I only have the vaguest idea about those theories anyway.

Let me try this another way. A hundred years ago Christians believed that God was present with them and that God was eternal. It was taken on faith but with no real way of being able to conceive how it might be possible.

As a Christian I believe that God is present with us and that He is eternal, which is still taken on faith. However, now that science has opened up a world of other dimensions and other universes, we now at least have a way of picturing or comprehending how what we believe on faith might actually work.

Thank you for the kind words by the way.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Straggler, posted 05-09-2013 2:45 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Straggler, posted 05-10-2013 2:10 PM GDR has responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 134 of 181 (698914)
05-10-2013 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by GDR
05-09-2013 7:36 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
GDR writes:

A hundred years ago Christians believed that God was present with them and that God was eternal. It was taken on faith but with no real way of being able to conceive how it might be possible.

GDR writes:

However, now that science has opened up a world of other dimensions and other universes, we now at least have a way of picturing or comprehending how what we believe on faith might actually work.

Firstly - In order for this to be correct it is necessary for the things physicists are talking about (Kaluza Klein dimensions, Brane worlds etc.) to be comparable to the things theists are talking about (i.e. heaven). But beyond poetic phraseology in popular science articles (e.g. "an entire universe interwoven silently with our own" - for full quote see below) there isn't really any basis for such comparisons at all is there?

quote:
Scientists are increasingly considering the possibility that dark matter, in particular, is not just a contrivance to account for the motion of visible matter but a hidden side of the universe with a rich inner life. It may consist of a veritable zoo of particles interacting through novel forces of natureóan entire universe interwoven silently with our own.

Secondly - Christian notions of cosmology down the ages including the positioning of God's dwelling place are very very far from compatible with anything modern science is even remotely suggesting:

quote:
In the Old Testament the word shamayim represented both the sky/atmosphere, and the dwelling place of God. The raqia or firmament - the visible sky - was a solid inverted bowl over the earth, coloured blue from the heavenly ocean above it. Rain, snow, wind and hail were kept in storehouses outside the raqia, which had "windows" to allow them in - the waters for Noah's flood entered when the "windows of heaven" were opened.[30] Heaven extended down to and was coterminous with (i.e. it touched) the farthest edges of the earth (e.g. Deuteronomy 4:32); humans looking up from earth saw the floor of heaven, which was made of clear blue lapis-lazuli (Exodus 24:9-10), as was God's throne (Ezekiel 1:26)

Link

GDR writes:

Thank you for the kind words by the way.

Whatever our differences here (or elsewhere) - I meant every word.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by GDR, posted 05-09-2013 7:36 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by GDR, posted 05-12-2013 12:00 AM Straggler has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 135 of 181 (698977)
05-12-2013 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Straggler
05-10-2013 2:10 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Straggler writes:

Firstly - In order for this to be correct it is necessary for the things physicists are talking about (Kaluza Klein dimensions, Brane worlds etc.) to be comparable to the things theists are talking about (i.e. heaven). But beyond p oetic phraseology in popular science articles (e.g. "an entire universe interwoven silently with our own" - for full quote see below) there isn't really any basis for such comparisons at all is there?


I have to defer to your far greater knowledge of modern physics to compare what I am talking about to specific theories. Science does tell us that there is much more out there that we canít perceive than what we can. There does seem to be a consistent view that there are other dimensions and/or universes. Physicists now have specific theories and then look to verify them.

I have no doubt that there is no scientific theory that proposes that we have an interconnected universe from which God interacts with our world. In addition I have no doubt that there is no scientific theory that proposes that there are dimensions that are imperceivable to us with our 5 senses, but with different senses we might perceive an entirely different reality that might include God.

However, both of those ideas are consistent with the suggestion that there are other universes and/or dimensions that so far we havenít been able to perceive. I guess my point is that prior to science suggesting the possibility of other universes and dimensions, we had no frame of reference to consider an eternal god or an omni-present interactive god. If nothing else it gives me a way to imagine my faith that wouldnít be available to me otherwise.

Some day science might be able to do more but unless there is some quantum leap forward in the next period of time Iím afraid I wonít be around to see it. Maybe in the next life my great great great grand-children will be able to tell me all about it.

Straggler writes:

Secondly - Christian notions of cosmology down the ages including the positioning of God's dwelling place are very very far from compatible with anything modern science is even remotely suggesting:

Once again Iíll defer to you far greater knowledge. The only thing I would add is that it seems to me that if QM and relativity have proven anything they have at least proven that the basis of our existence is anything but intuitive, so who knows what the future holds in the science world. (I know that is a god of the gaps argument, so just take it as pure conjecture and nothing more. )

You are certainly right about the OT and its cosmological view not being compatible with what we now objectively now know. It was written with the science that they had then. They believed essentially in a 3 tier world with us in the middle, heaven up there somewhere and the underworld beneath us. I am just referring to the two concepts of God that have Him being eternal and that He intervenes with us in ways that we normally arenít able to directly perceive.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Straggler, posted 05-10-2013 2:10 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2013 3:46 AM GDR has responded
 Message 141 by Straggler, posted 05-13-2013 8:43 AM GDR has responded

    
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