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Author Topic:   Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(3)
Message 586 of 638 (737217)
09-19-2014 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by taiji2
09-19-2014 3:16 PM


Re: Current Summary
Huh. I hate it when people play the vet card, but...

I'm 63, Army vet, there--39th Engineer Battalion (Combat), "Fight Build and Destroy"--and other balmy environs and missions that don't get into files.

My experiences were relevant, too: especially with the candy-asses who had to take their turn in the barrel and couldn't take the heat.

You had to be coaxed into staying past a few gruff words from jar, and went all squealy girly when you faced sharp return fire (refutation caliber).

So your wife, the lawyer, totally objectively, agrees that your incomprehension of the nature of evidence would win the day in court. Your attempt to typify her as totally objective is laughable: lawyers are partisans, to the bone--they're supposed to be. (Btw, I'm sure she is a fine attorney and a good person, no offense intended to her--she's supposed to take your side.)

You turned the give-and-take of debate into a farce: when your interlocutors paraphrased your assertions or pointed out their consequences, you reached for the quibble dictionary, rather than working to clarify your meaning. Try that in court.

At any rate, as you say, the record is here for anyone to review and judge independently.

Any shots taken were parting shots only because you ran away.

Less than impressed, soldier.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by taiji2, posted 09-19-2014 3:16 PM taiji2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by taiji2, posted 09-19-2014 6:06 PM Omnivorous has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11348
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 587 of 638 (737218)
09-19-2014 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 585 by taiji2
09-19-2014 4:01 PM


What was the best and most significant argument that you made in this thread?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by taiji2, posted 09-19-2014 4:01 PM taiji2 has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4643
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


(2)
Message 588 of 638 (737220)
09-19-2014 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by taiji2
09-19-2014 3:16 PM


Re: Current Summary
For God's sake, stop whining and try to make a decent point. Nobody here is interested in who you are, what you've done, what wars you've fought and who the bad guys are. The only thing that matters here is whether your arguments stand up to returning fire.

I have no skin in this one but have been waiting for something interesting to be said - so far zip. The people here will argue the exact hour a good shit on a Monday morning must happen and exactly what colour it must be to qualify as "good" if they've got nothing else to meither at - it's a hazard of this place; it's for argument and in sparse times anything will apparently do.

The other problem you have is that so far you've said absolutely nothing of consequence - everything you've attempted to say has already been done to death here a million times. You'd be better off reading the history that saying something trivial and hoping to be shown sympathy.

Right, that said, have a think, find some humility and try to take simple, rational steps. The other thing that can happen here - damn rare that it is - if people really do want to learn, there are some very knowledgeable people here that are prepared to spend hours in explanation if they think you're really interested in finding answers.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by taiji2, posted 09-19-2014 3:16 PM taiji2 has not yet responded

  
taiji2
Member (Idle past 874 days)
Posts: 124
From: Georgia, USA
Joined: 09-10-2014


Message 589 of 638 (737224)
09-19-2014 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 586 by Omnivorous
09-19-2014 4:05 PM


Re: Current Summary
Omnivarious writes:

Huh. I hate it when people play the vet card, but...

Ok, seeing you want to go there. Sorry that bothers you. My Vietnam experience was my single most defining experience in life. If my pulling analogies from that experience bothers you, it is your problem not mine. I really think though, your comment is just one more duck and dodge trick. I could think of no better analogy for defining cowardice than the real world one I gave you. A combat veteran would have acknowledged and gone on from there. Which leads us to:

omniwarrior writes:

I'm 63, Army vet, there--39th Engineer Battalion (Combat), "Fight Build and Destroy"--and other balmy environs and missions that don't get into files.

Yeah, I knew some engineers. A few of them even "saw some shit". I have always had high respect for engineers. Based on the crap I hear coming from you though, I am not convinced you ever saw combat. Vague references to balmy environs doesn't cut it. Only combat veterans have a right to criticize combat veterans. If you are not one, get out of my face.

omnirelevance writes:

My experiences were relevant, too: especially with the candy-asses who had to take their turn in the barrel and couldn't take the heat.

This candy ass actually saw combat...... a matter of record. I killed and saw my buddies killed, also a matter of record. In the army I was in, being called a candy ass, especially if called that by some REMF (Rear Echelon Mother Fucker) usually led to further discussion. We can go there if you wish. Come visit me in my town

omnidodge*duck writes:

You had to be coaxed into staying past a few gruff words from jar, and went all squealy girly when you faced sharp return fire (refutation caliber).

I had to be coaxed into staying in what I knew to be a setup. If you think I am a squealy girly, I gave you an open invitation above to come see me and check for yourself. Insults from behind the anonymity of this forum does not cut it.

For everyone else, I did have no intention of replying further on this thread. Combat veterans dispise "pretenders". A pretender is one who claims the right to talk about combat when they haven't been in combat. Proximity in some rear area of a combat zone doesn't qualify. From all I have heard, Mr. Omniquibble is just that, a pretender, and I could not let his loose remarks go by.

Mr. Omni, my offer of a reunion is a real one. Do come see me. Just don't candy-ass, squealy-girly out on me when you get here.


The purpose of debate IS to manifest truth.

The purpose of debate is NOT to change someone's mind.

The purpose of debate is NOT to tear down a person or make them look bad.

The purpose of a debate is NOT to win.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 586 by Omnivorous, posted 09-19-2014 4:05 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 590 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-19-2014 6:40 PM taiji2 has not yet responded
 Message 591 by Percy, posted 09-19-2014 6:52 PM taiji2 has responded
 Message 592 by Omnivorous, posted 09-19-2014 7:20 PM taiji2 has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11348
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 590 of 638 (737227)
09-19-2014 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by taiji2
09-19-2014 6:06 PM


Re: Current Summary
I gave you an open invitation above to come see me and check for yourself. Insults from behind the anonymity of this forum does not cut it.

Whoa, how long ago did you first get on the internet?

Seriously.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by taiji2, posted 09-19-2014 6:06 PM taiji2 has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15630
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 591 of 638 (737228)
09-19-2014 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by taiji2
09-19-2014 6:06 PM


Re: Current Summary
Hi Taiji2,

If you're going to stay then this thread *does* have a topic. I believe you were arguing that there are matters beyond what science can fathom that can still be shown true, and that you were going to try to do this concerning intelligent design.

Concerning the other stuff like your military service and threatening to settle things physically, Coffee House would be a better venue for that. Threads can be opened over at Coffee House without having to propose them first in Proposed New Topics.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by taiji2, posted 09-19-2014 6:06 PM taiji2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by taiji2, posted 09-19-2014 7:20 PM Percy has responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 592 of 638 (737229)
09-19-2014 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by taiji2
09-19-2014 6:06 PM


Re: Current Summary

See? You can talk plain when you want to, and the vaporous clouds of Tao part to reveal...what? A petulant child whose own service should not be questioned, but who smirks and dismisses mine--and every combat engineer's--as suspect.

One difference between us is that I, like most vets, don't give a shit what you think about my service, or need to prove my macho with bring-it-on web threats. Are you really a vet?

See how easy that is? Cheap, huh?

I lost interest in internet tough guy acts a long time ago: sorry 'bout that. You want to test my mettle, find me. Should be a breeze for a blooded Tao warrior like you.

Meanwhile, learn to put some spine in the defense of your own ideas: that's the arena you're in now. The Nam was long ago, and if it remains the defining experience of your life, nearly 50 years later, that's just pathetic. The defining experience of my life is the love of my wife, children, and grandchildren.

Just sayin'.

Weren't you leaving?

AbE: Apologies, Percy. I'll stop here.

Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by taiji2, posted 09-19-2014 6:06 PM taiji2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 594 by taiji2, posted 09-19-2014 7:24 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded
 Message 595 by taiji2, posted 09-19-2014 7:31 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

    
taiji2
Member (Idle past 874 days)
Posts: 124
From: Georgia, USA
Joined: 09-10-2014


Message 593 of 638 (737230)
09-19-2014 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by Percy
09-19-2014 6:52 PM


Re: Current Summary
Percy,
Just to clarify. I reviewed my remarks and am pretty sure I never said anything like "settle things physically". As my wife would say, that might be considered an actionable remark. I was responding to a Vietnam veteran who had in incomplete view of an analogy I had made which referenced Vietnam. I offered a reunion between Vietnam veterans to further discuss the matter if he wished to have a reunion. Reunions between veterans are not uncommon. I was not opening a new topic, but responding to a specific message.

The purpose of debate IS to manifest truth.

The purpose of debate is NOT to change someone's mind.

The purpose of debate is NOT to tear down a person or make them look bad.

The purpose of a debate is NOT to win.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Percy, posted 09-19-2014 6:52 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 596 by JonF, posted 09-19-2014 7:37 PM taiji2 has not yet responded
 Message 597 by Percy, posted 09-19-2014 7:49 PM taiji2 has not yet responded

    
taiji2
Member (Idle past 874 days)
Posts: 124
From: Georgia, USA
Joined: 09-10-2014


Message 594 of 638 (737231)
09-19-2014 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 592 by Omnivorous
09-19-2014 7:20 PM


Re: Current Summary
So I take that as a no, you do not seek a reunion?

And yes, I am all I have said. I can provide DD214, unit citations, personal citations.......... I have evidence galore. If you ever want to attend a reunion, I can show it to you.


The purpose of debate IS to manifest truth.

The purpose of debate is NOT to change someone's mind.

The purpose of debate is NOT to tear down a person or make them look bad.

The purpose of a debate is NOT to win.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Omnivorous, posted 09-19-2014 7:20 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

    
taiji2
Member (Idle past 874 days)
Posts: 124
From: Georgia, USA
Joined: 09-10-2014


Message 595 of 638 (737232)
09-19-2014 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 592 by Omnivorous
09-19-2014 7:20 PM


Re: Current Summary
Smirk is your word, not mine. But I do doubt your agency to speak as a combat veteran based on your comments. And no, I do not dismiss every combat engineer as suspect. I have personal experiences where I have observed great personal bravery from the group of combat engineers.

The purpose of debate IS to manifest truth.

The purpose of debate is NOT to change someone's mind.

The purpose of debate is NOT to tear down a person or make them look bad.

The purpose of a debate is NOT to win.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Omnivorous, posted 09-19-2014 7:20 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3535
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 596 of 638 (737233)
09-19-2014 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by taiji2
09-19-2014 7:20 PM


Re: Current Summary
A lawyer could argue that your words were not inciting violence.

That lawyer would lose.

I will accede to Percy's request and not pile on with the 'Nam experience, tempted though I am.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by taiji2, posted 09-19-2014 7:20 PM taiji2 has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15630
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 597 of 638 (737234)
09-19-2014 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by taiji2
09-19-2014 7:20 PM


Re: Current Summary
taiji2 writes:

Just to clarify. I reviewed my remarks and am pretty sure I never said anything like "settle things physically".

Really? You said:

taiji2 in Message 589 writes:

In the army I was in, being called a candy ass, especially if called that by some REMF (Rear Echelon Mother Fucker) usually led to further discussion. We can go there if you wish. Come visit me in my town.

Sounds pretty threatening to me.

Will you be addressing the topic anytime soon?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by taiji2, posted 09-19-2014 7:20 PM taiji2 has not yet responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 598 of 638 (737237)
09-19-2014 11:38 PM


Confirmation bias, taiji2 and me
Perverse as it may sound, I'm trying to view this dust-up through the lens of the topic.

Design proponents impress me with the sincerity of their beliefs: the "Just look at it, can't you see it?" appeal is not an affectation; the clear apprehension of design they report is real, which partly explains the frustrated exasperation, and the charges of intellectual dishonesty, with which such discussions end. To their debate opponents, the confirmation bias is as apparent as design is to the IDist, and most of our experience here has been with Christian (explicitly or thinly veiled) champions of ID,

In that context, I was intrigued by taiji2's first tentative posts. A truly non-Christian proponent of ID!--this promised some genuinely fresh perspectives. I encouraged him to stay and participate out of sincere curiosity, and largely stayed out of the discussion to help minimize the dog-pile effect that sours so many new creationist members. That is not my natural bent.

Alas and alack. Whether due to the dog-pile effect or his unfamiliarity with the ID debate, most of his responses struck us as tactical rather than substantive: I'm not writing this to attack taiji2, so I'm seeking neutral wording. I was, as I posted, disappointed at his departure and his charge of premeditated intellectual dishonesty; however, I found it interesting, as I saw it, that powerful confirmation bias can be fueled quite as well by philosophy or mysticism as by religion.

Ah temper, ah mores...I took particular offense at taiji2's assertion that he had been baited into a trap, since I worked hard to keep him around; thus I took his charge of intellectual dishonesty more personally than I might otherwise do.

A necessary digression: the ARVN forces were comprised of an officer corps seeking political advancement and corrupt wealth; many of them came from the Francophile Catholic families that fled the north and formed the ruling class in the south; many of the "enlisted" men were animist or Buddhist peasants with little use for the northern Catholics who were seen as collaborators with the French (well, they were). The Vietnamese have a long, heroic martial history of resisting invasions and tossing out occupiers, mostly the Chinese.

So: officers seeking influence and money, soldiers conscripted by force majeure or economic who loathed their officers and the ruling elite: neither had any good reason to fight. They were not cowards. South Vietnam was an American fiction to which no one felt any loyalty--what sane man would die for it? Our leaders were mad to send us there.

Thus, taiji2's extended military analogy felt unfair to both them and us here at EvC, as well as a little, well, phony.

Enter my own confirmation bias. This understanding that differs so much from my own is further evidence of the phoniness with which he entered the thread. I pushed his buttons in a way I knew would inflame a Vietnam veteran, precisely because his take on the South Vietnamese and his use of that take in an internet debate offended me.

Ironically, his enraged replies were the most persuasive rebuttal of "phoniness" he could have offered. I've experienced that rage here as well: some years ago a passing poster suggested my entire military service was dishonorable: as I recall, I demanded to have an encounter in which I would "pith you like a frog." Talk about actionable. I'm not proud of that moment, to say the least.

Taiji2 indulged his own confirmation bias when he decided that my vague description of other "balmy climes" during my military service was evidence of my phoniness.

As a simple matter of fact, throughout that era the U.S. military did things they weren't supposed to do in places they weren't supposed to be. I had temporary duty assignments with attachments in Thailand and Korea about which I was never to speak; they weren't glorious or dramatic, but they were occasionally hazardous. I'm sure taiji2 knows these sorts of operations and these down-low sorts of assignments were quite common. One might have thought he would simply challenge my military service altogether; instead, he saw, and seized upon, something he interpreted as confirming his worst instincts about me, that despised thing, the pretender.

Confirmation bias: "The tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's beliefs or hypotheses."

Religion, philosophy, accidents of personal history, anger: apparently every potent human engine can cause confirmation bias to flare from a background effect to an acute instance.

Well, that's the best I can do to attempt some profit of understanding here. My apologies to the forum for helping that train off the rails. I suppose I even owe taiji2 an apology of sorts; he's welcome to it if he finds it here.

In the meantime, I wonder: the thread asks "Is there a legitimate argument for design?"

I would ask, is there any argument for design that cannot be read as exceptionally strong, "just look at it!" confirmation bias?

Thanks for your patience.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by taiji2, posted 09-20-2014 3:52 AM Omnivorous has responded

    
taiji2
Member (Idle past 874 days)
Posts: 124
From: Georgia, USA
Joined: 09-10-2014


Message 599 of 638 (737238)
09-20-2014 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 598 by Omnivorous
09-19-2014 11:38 PM


Re: Confirmation bias, taiji2 and me
In your post 589, you very sarcastically commented that I can talk plain when I want to. Since that is what you request, that is what I will give. My plain talk might include invectives when I get pissed, but I presume that will be allowed as you requested plain talk.

First, the only reason I am responding is the fact that you offered an apology "of sorts". I will therefore "sort of" accept that apology and give my own "dust-up", presuming I understand that to mean some sort of after-action report.

The first thing I want to make clear is that I am not a liar. The Vietnam experience I told is absolutely true to the best of my recollection after almost 45 years. I was an artillery officer in Vietnam. I arrived in country a second lieutenant and left country a first lieutenant. Ten months of my tour was spent as a forward observer... three months with an infantry company and seven months with an armored cavalry troop. If you don't know what a forward observer is, it involves doing the same as everyone else with the added duty of calling in artillery fire when needed. I spent two months flying as an aerial observer in support of the armored cavalry squadron. This involves flying in a light observation helicopter (LOH) and calling in artillery when a target is found. I left Vietnam with a purple heart, bronze star with two oak leaf clusters and a V device, and an air medal with oak leaf cluster. I give this information not to impress, but because even your latest post showed remaining doubt as to my authenticity. I am what I say I am.

As to your take on the ARVN. To be honest, if there were people like you in my army with your very learned academic views on the culture of the ARVN soldier, I never encountered them during my tour. And that said with the caveat that I was an officer and probably would have heard more sophisticated views from my peers than had I been an enlisted man. The consensus view of ARVN by all my fellow soldiers was that ARVN were cowards and not to be trusted very far. In combat, there was neither the time nor the inclination to pursue sophisticated academic views on culture.

There was one exception. We did an op south of Da Nang with a regular ARVN company that had good officers and this unit did its job well. They took casualties, they fought, they were good soldiers. They were the exception, not the rule. I say this having recollection that we did joint ops with the ARVN equivalent of our army ranger units. They sucked.

Enough about Vietnam.

Now to the rest of it.

My chronology to the EVC forum:
I had googled for places to discuss Taoism on the net. Calling yourself Taoist is quite lonely. There are no churches. The one brick and mortar place I found turned out to be a place where they teach Tai Chi and also offer a thing called chanting .... which involves white people dressing up in chinese robes and little beanie hats and doing incantations in a foreign language. Not very fulfilling, hence I sought discussion on the web.

I fell across an interfaith forum. Not much in the way of Taoism, but I did try to discuss my cosmological views there with little reward. I then sought a better place to discuss cosmology and this led me to EVC. Entering the forum, the Intelligent Design thread caught my attention and that is where I went.

I read through the thread we have been on and entered with the reservations I have already discussed at length. What I said about what you people here are doing is not my imagination. You have some weird game going here where you presume anyone coming into the discussion is a phony out to make trouble..... a troll in your words. I expressed my observation of this game of yours early on and have been taking a raft of shit for it ever since.

You mentioned dog-piling in your post. That is a pale description of what goes on here. I found myself in single debate with a raft of hostile responders who issue insults, veiled or open, at almost every turn. I made conscious effort to not respond with name calling, and frankly until you pushed my veteran buttons I do not recall having done so. I found that any topic relevant bit of logic I presented was ignored unless it could be twisted and thrown back with derisive comments.

You say my language was sharp. Did I make derisive and insulting remarks? Outright insults?

You people here bait your guests with the deliberate intention of finding the right trigger for their emotional response. That is not debate. That is mind-fuck.

So,,,,,, long story short, I entered the forum honestly and was not treated honestly. I never told a lie or had a hidden agenda. What you saw was what I had. You treated me, and seem to treat all who enter here, with the presumption that they are liars. Maybe people are vetted into your "circle" at some point after passing some sort of test. Who knows, who the fuck cares. If you think yourself intellectually sophisticated, be fucking man enough to admit the game you play.

As to the "sort of" apology. To the extent that your apology was sincere, I accept it. As to your Vietnam service, if you say you saw combat I will not call you a liar. I will tell you that you are the first combat vet I have ever met who comes out of the gate with another vet with the kind of shit you were talking to me. That can get you killed dude or at least seriously fucked up. Your comment that the things you said to me were premeditated and designed to push my buttons makes it all the worse. If I knew you deliberately fucked with me like that and you were within reach, things would go bad, You seriously are absolutely not like any vet I have ever met. I have never met anyone who would do that shit to another vet.

Anyhow, you sophisticates keep on going with your game. I do pity the poor fools who fall into here. And yes, despite all your posturing, what you do is intellectually dishonest.


The purpose of debate IS to manifest truth.

The purpose of debate is NOT to change someone's mind.

The purpose of debate is NOT to tear down a person or make them look bad.

The purpose of a debate is NOT to win.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by Omnivorous, posted 09-19-2014 11:38 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 600 by Omnivorous, posted 09-20-2014 5:15 AM taiji2 has not yet responded
 Message 601 by Percy, posted 09-20-2014 7:55 AM taiji2 has responded
 Message 602 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2014 8:38 AM taiji2 has responded
 Message 603 by ringo, posted 09-20-2014 12:18 PM taiji2 has responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(2)
Message 600 of 638 (737239)
09-20-2014 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 599 by taiji2
09-20-2014 3:52 AM


Re: Confirmation bias, taiji2 and me
That went well.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by taiji2, posted 09-20-2014 3:52 AM taiji2 has not yet responded

    
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