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Author Topic:   SCIENCE: -- "observational science" vs "historical science" vs ... science.
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 601 of 614 (746294)
01-05-2015 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 599 by Percy
01-05-2015 11:17 AM


Re: thought experiment and turning this into an example of science
Percy writes:

You thought you saw an A-frame that clearly isn't there....


As I said, the artist's rendering may not be perfect. Noah would, most likely, have used an A-frame design.

Percy writes:

But I think both you and RAZD would have to concede that the wooden lattice boom I thought was in that image really *is* impossible.


I'm willing to concede that many figments of your imagination are impossible.

My only point here is that there is nothing inherently wrong with the picture.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by Percy, posted 01-05-2015 11:17 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 602 by Percy, posted 01-05-2015 11:51 AM ringo has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15911
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 602 of 614 (746297)
01-05-2015 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 601 by ringo
01-05-2015 11:27 AM


Re: thought experiment and turning this into an example of science
ringo writes:

My only point here is that there is nothing inherently wrong with the picture.

If you interpret the cross members (that we now know are image artifacts) as real then you've got a wooden lattice boom with square (instead of triangular) lattice that would collapse into a pile of matchsticks when hoisted into place, let alone trying to lift something with it:

Once you know the cross members are actually image artifacts then you have an exceedingly odd looking boom that I originally noted in Message 590 and some of whose problems RAZD enumerated in Message 594, as we see in this higher resolution image:

Notice how the region between the two beams of the boom appears to be whited out? This is especially apparent near the top of the boom where the whiting out has caused most of the pulley to be missing. If it is "whiting out" then it might have been done because whatever was originally drawn there looked worse than having nothing at all. I don't think it's a case of missing and eventually forgotten details that were intended to be added later, because if that were the case then the pulley would be fully represented instead of being mostly missing.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by ringo, posted 01-05-2015 11:27 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by ringo, posted 01-05-2015 12:06 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 605 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2015 12:22 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 607 by Tangle, posted 01-05-2015 5:31 PM Percy has responded
 Message 611 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2015 3:31 AM Percy has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 603 of 614 (746302)
01-05-2015 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by Percy
01-05-2015 11:51 AM


Re: thought experiment and turning this into an example of science
Percy writes:

I don't think it's a case of missing and eventually forgotten details that were intended to be added later....


Neither do I. I think it's a case of the artist not knowing much about wooden cranes. We could probably find a lot of other things to nit-pick in the drawing - or we could give our heads a shake and remember: it's a drawing. A few details in a drawing are a complete non-issue.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Percy, posted 01-05-2015 11:51 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 604 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2015 12:11 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 606 by herebedragons, posted 01-05-2015 1:17 PM ringo has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18959
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 604 of 614 (746304)
01-05-2015 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 603 by ringo
01-05-2015 12:06 PM


Re: thought experiment and turning this into an example of science
... I think it's a case of the artist not knowing much about wooden cranes. We could probably find a lot of other things to nit-pick in the drawing ...

Such as the top-heavy narrow base design ... on wheels ...

And I think we can say with high confidence that there is no such crane construction of this sort seen in any documented historical ancient cranes ... so Hammy isn't doing either historical OR observational science ...

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : last p added


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 603 by ringo, posted 01-05-2015 12:06 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18959
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 605 of 614 (746306)
01-05-2015 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by Percy
01-05-2015 11:51 AM


boom sideways collapse
... Notice how the region between the two beams of the boom appears to be whited out? This is especially apparent near the top of the boom where the whiting out has caused most of the pulley to be missing. ...

If this is not an A-frame, then that may represent cables to a cross beam (the dark square in the gap near the top side of the hull?) going around the tip and down the other side, similar to the stays on a mast.

Without something to control sideways collapse of the boom, and any little swing of the load laterally would likely result in catastrophic failure ... regardless of construction of the stick ...

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Percy, posted 01-05-2015 11:51 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
herebedragons
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Posts: 1413
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 2.9


(3)
Message 606 of 614 (746319)
01-05-2015 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 603 by ringo
01-05-2015 12:06 PM


Re: thought experiment and turning this into an example of science
A few details in a drawing are a complete non-issue.

I don't know, that crane looks so ridiculous and cartoon-ish. It looks to me as though Monty Python provided the inspiration for that crane design.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 603 by ringo, posted 01-05-2015 12:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 614 by ringo, posted 01-06-2015 11:00 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 607 of 614 (746340)
01-05-2015 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by Percy
01-05-2015 11:51 AM


Re: thought experiment and turning this into an example of science
Percy writes:

Notice how the region between the two beams of the boom appears to be whited out? This is especially apparent near the top of the boom where the whiting out has caused most of the pulley to be missing. If it is "whiting out" then it might have been done because whatever was originally drawn there looked worse than having nothing at all. I don't think it's a case of missing and eventually forgotten details that were intended to be added later, because if that were the case then the pulley would be fully represented instead of being mostly missing.

I think you're seeing things that aint there. The beam is single as you first thought with a pulley cut into it midline at the top. The line that I think you are seeing as the outside edge of a second beam is actually the pulley rope of the winch.

If you look at the upright sprouting from the top of the crane housing, it's a shortened version of the main beam - including the midline pulley with pulley rope.

All silly enough in engineering terms but the real stupidity is that the balancing load - such that it is - is outside the wheel base of the crane, making it totally unstable. If you look at the tractor crane picture earlier, you can see that its base extends beyond the counter balance keeping it's centre of balance within it's base making it much harder to tip over backwards.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Percy, posted 01-05-2015 11:51 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by Percy, posted 01-05-2015 6:32 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15911
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 608 of 614 (746346)
01-05-2015 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 607 by Tangle
01-05-2015 5:31 PM


Re: thought experiment and turning this into an example of science
Tangle writes:

I think you're seeing things that aint there. The beam is single as you first thought with a pulley cut into it midline at the top. The line that I think you are seeing as the outside edge of a second beam is actually the pulley rope of the winch.

I see the pulley rope going right over the pulley, so I'm not mistaking the pulley rope for the outside edge of a second beam. Let me color code this:

  • Red: Pulley rope
  • Green: Top beam of boom
  • Light blue: Bottom beam of boom

If the green beam and the light blue beam and the space in between is really just all one big thick beam, why is the region between the two beams the same color as the sky?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 607 by Tangle, posted 01-05-2015 5:31 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 609 by kjsimons, posted 01-05-2015 7:58 PM Percy has responded

    
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 647
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 609 of 614 (746348)
01-05-2015 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 608 by Percy
01-05-2015 6:32 PM


Re: thought experiment and turning this into an example of science
Percy, I actually think that the lightened area between what you call the top and bottom beam is actually just supposed to be light reflecting off a single cylindrical round beam. Note that this lightened area doesn't occur where the bulk of the ark would shade the boom. So I think this is just one mostly solid cylindrical beam.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by Percy, posted 01-05-2015 6:32 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 610 by Percy, posted 01-05-2015 9:04 PM kjsimons has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15911
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 610 of 614 (746356)
01-05-2015 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 609 by kjsimons
01-05-2015 7:58 PM


Re: thought experiment and turning this into an example of science
kjsimons writes:

Percy, I actually think that the lightened area between what you call the top and bottom beam is actually just supposed to be light reflecting off a single cylindrical round beam. Note that this lightened area doesn't occur where the bulk of the ark would shade the boom. So I think this is just one mostly solid cylindrical beam.

If you look at the complete image you can see that if this were true then the wrong part of the boom is illuminated:

To be consistent with the light illuminating the beams of the ark, the bottom of the boom that is facing to the right should be illuminated, not the side facing forward. Still, you're saying the same thing RAZD said a while back, and it seems the most likely explanation, it's just that the artist added highlighting to the boom incorrectly.

Looking at the mast, its lighter portion must also be highlighting, and I wonder if that rectangular block about halfway down is the shadow of the weight hanging from the boom. If so it would mean that the sun is directly in line with the weight, the boom and the mast, more evidence that only the underside of the boom should be highlighted. Of course if they were all in line with the sun then that weight couldn't project a shadow onto the mast because the boom is in the way, so as several of us have said, who really knows.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by kjsimons, posted 01-05-2015 7:58 PM kjsimons has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 611 of 614 (746372)
01-06-2015 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 602 by Percy
01-05-2015 11:51 AM


Re: thought experiment and turning this into an example of science
Percy writes:

Notice how the region between the two beams of the boom appears to be whited out? This is especially apparent near the top of the boom where the whiting out has caused most of the pulley to be missing. If it is "whiting out" then it might have been done because whatever was originally drawn there looked worse than having nothing at all. I don't think it's a case of missing and eventually forgotten details that were intended to be added later, because if that were the case then the pulley would be fully represented instead of being mostly missing.

I'm seeing a single beam shaped like a toothpick - similarilarly lit and shaded to the upright above the housing. The 'whited out' part of the pulley is because the pulley is hung inside a cut out in the beam in the same way it is in the post above the housing - which is pretty clearly seen.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Percy, posted 01-05-2015 11:51 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 612 by Percy, posted 01-06-2015 7:18 AM Tangle has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15911
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 612 of 614 (746375)
01-06-2015 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 611 by Tangle
01-06-2015 3:31 AM


Re: thought experiment and turning this into an example of science
You've gone back to my description from before I became convinced that the central light colored region of the boom is highlighting from the light of the sun.

It occurred to me earlier this morning what an interesting example this is of people's tendency to fill in details when presented with an ambiguous image.

I'm seeing a single beam shaped like a toothpick - similarly lit and shaded to the upright above the housing.

I could understand an analogy to a long, skinny, round unsharpened pencil, but not to a toothpick, which is tapered and sharpened at each end. It does appear to slightly taper from base to tip.

I couldn't figure out what "similarly lit" was similarly lit relative to, nor what "shaded to the upright above the housing" meant. I understand the "upright" is the mast atop the cab, but couldn't see what the boom being shaded to it was supposed to mean.

The 'whited out' part of the pulley is because the pulley is hung inside a cut out in the beam in the same way it is in the post above the housing - which is pretty clearly seen.

Yes. I acknowledged that the boom is likely a single solid beam in Message 610. It occurs to me now that a single rope holding such a long, solid beam would be insufficient. If that's the figure of a man on the crane's platform then the base of the boom is about 5 feet in diameter, and the end is maybe 3 feet. Assuming a boom 50 feet in length (at least - it's taller than the ark, which is at least 40 feet) yields a boom of around 15 tons for a wood like oak. There need to be additional ropes, a lot of them.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2015 3:31 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 613 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2015 7:23 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 613 of 614 (746376)
01-06-2015 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by Percy
01-06-2015 7:18 AM


Re: thought experiment and turning this into an example of science
Well, whichever way you see it, it's absurd...

ps, I have a box of toothpicks that only have a point at one end. But enough, already ;-)


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Percy, posted 01-06-2015 7:18 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 614 of 614 (746391)
01-06-2015 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 606 by herebedragons
01-05-2015 1:17 PM


Re: thought experiment and turning this into an example of science
herebedragons writes:

It looks to me as though Monty Python provided the inspiration for that crane design.


I'm afraid your point is lost in the poor illustration that you chose. A Trojan bunny is quite plausible from an engineering point of view.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by herebedragons, posted 01-05-2015 1:17 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
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