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Author Topic:   Faith and Well-Being
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 12 of 60 (740024)
10-30-2014 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Jon
10-30-2014 7:39 PM


Re: Knowable versus Unknowable
Jon writes:
I think the thing that motivated me to start this thread was the conflict between the belief I feel compelled to have and the logic that tells me it is no good.
Personally I don't see a conflict between logic and Christian beliefs. I agree that if you want to take the fundamentalist stance and believe in an inerrant Bible then logic does go out the window.
I think that it is best to fully explore your doubts with reason. It makes no sense for God to give us the gift of reason and then not expect us to use it. What I found very affirming of my faith was studying Jesus in His historical environment. Jesus was a 1st century Jew. How would other 1st century Jews understand Him.
Within that I found it helpful to put aside the concept of His deity until I better understood Jesus the man. I think that makes sense to do that, , as it is obvious (according to the Gospels) that none of His followers during His life time had any notion of Him being part of the Trinity. They viewed Him as a prophet and the Messiah.
In that regard I contend that the foremost Christian historian around today is N T Wright now working from St. Andrew's in Scotland. I have spent countless hours reading what he has written and am just starting his 1600 plus page book all on Paul and his world.
Here is a link to a web site that has a great deal of what he has said and written. There are certainly many different understandings of Christianity out there. If you have followed some of my discussions with people like Faith you can see that we are so far apart that essentially we are adherents of different religions.
NTWrightPage -
I have no doubt that some of the things I believe are wrong but I do have confidence in a couple of things that are foundational. The first thing is that Jesus was bodily resurrected almost 2000 years ago and that God is good, loving and just.
If you are considering Christianity you might look into this. There is no early form of Christianity that didn't base their faith on the bodily resurrection of Jesus. I would start by researching what you believe about that because if the resurrection was not an historical event then you are better off joining any other organization that is about serving others. As Paul says, if it didn't happen then we are to be the most pitied.
Here is a link to a lecture in written form given by Wright on the resurrection..
Jesus’ Resurrection and Christian Origins - NTWrightPage
Hope this helps

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Jon, posted 10-30-2014 7:39 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Jon, posted 10-31-2014 12:45 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 15 of 60 (740066)
10-31-2014 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jon
10-31-2014 12:45 PM


Re: Knowable versus Unknowable
Jon writes:
I don't see a conflict either. The conflict I am having is between knowing that faith that exists only good times is empty faith and weak. It is based on the whims of the world; it is a leaf in the wind.
Yet it draws me in though I do not want it.
The the truth is still the truth in good and bad times regardless of our feelings and emotions. It is us that changes and the reality of God is a constant. I think that if we look for a god that is going to solve all of our problems when we want him to, then I suggest that in my experience that isn't how God works. It is all part of free will.
Jon writes:
I am not fully convinced that being a Christian requires belief in the resurrection of Jesus. Obviously as a Christian you feel differently and are perfectly justified in your belief.
If Jesus wasn't resurrected then there is no reason to pay any more attention to Him than any other philosopher, and as a matter of fact less, as it would show Him up as just another failed messiah, and a highly delusional one at that.
Jon writes:
Wright's taking a deistic approach to the question: he believes that religious propositions can be substantiated by appeal to observations in the natural world. My theistic approach is very different; I do not think that the natural world can tell us anything about matters of faith and belief.
Wright is anything but a deist. The quote that you looked at is Wright's view as an historian. However, when he puts on his Christian scholar hat on he is very definitely a theistic Christian. For that matter a resurrected Jesus requires a theistic god.
Jon writes:
Of course, I think theistic faith is stronger specifically because it does not rest on the whims of scientific observation. If Wright is basing his faith in the resurrection on the notion that it is substantiated by the historical evidence, then we must ask ourselves what happens to this faith when (of if) new evidence presents itself.
Neither I nor Wright would say that theistic faith rests on the whims of scientific observation. However ultimately with perfect theology and perfect science would be congruent.
The resurrection was a one time event. Science can only say that we haven't observed anything else like that, and that it is totally unverifiable.
However, theoretically, if science could prove that the resurrection didn't happen then it would be obvious that our faith was misplaced. It is no point in having faith if it is based on an untruth.
It is my belief that we should base our faith using scripture, reason and tradition. I see tradition as being the accumulated wisdom of the centuries. Wright approaches faith in that manner.
As far as science is concerned I personally view it as a natural theology.
I'm going to be away from the computer pretty much for a week so I may not be able to get back to any replies to this for a while.
Cheers

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jon, posted 10-31-2014 12:45 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Jon, posted 10-31-2014 4:00 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 18 of 60 (740077)
10-31-2014 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jon
10-31-2014 4:00 PM


Re: Knowable versus Unknowable
I have just a minute.
Of course it's faith but the hope is that it is a reasonable faith. The historical aspects are important. If one is going to be a Jesus follower then it is important to know about His life and message. In order to understand that life and message it is important to understand Him in the context of His life. Again, He was a 1st century Jew speaking to and interacting with 1st Century Jews.
The historical aspects are important. They aren't going to prove anything but they do help establish the reasonableness of one's faith.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Jon, posted 10-31-2014 4:00 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 11-01-2014 1:20 PM GDR has not replied

  
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