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Author Topic:   Addiction By Definition
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4980
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 181 of 208 (811698)
06-10-2017 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Phat
06-10-2017 5:24 PM


Re: Day 328. Staring In The Mirror
Phat writes:

Religion itself could be a form of addiction.

Religion is the opium of the masses.

What concerns me is that my current arguments are not even as good as these were in the two threads.

Which is in contrst to your logic, argument and actions as an admin.

It seems to me that you're becoming rational.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 06-10-2017 5:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18863
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 182 of 208 (811703)
06-10-2017 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Phat
06-10-2017 5:24 PM


Re: Day 328. Staring In The Mirror
Day 328. Staring In The Mirror

Coming up on a year man. Don't concentrate on a lapse when you have so much success to celebrate. Nobody said it would be easy every day -- 3 steps forward 1 back still makes progress, and sometimes that 1 back means a reevaluation that takes to a different path to success.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 06-10-2017 5:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 183 of 208 (811704)
06-10-2017 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Phat
06-10-2017 5:24 PM


Re: Day 328. Staring In The Mirror
What concerns me is that my current arguments are not even as good as these were in the two threads. I seem to be mentally relapsing.

I don't think that's a great assumption. Only a few folks manage to generate pearls with every post. You are setting an impossible standard for yourself. FWIW, I've noticed a couple of very insightful recent posts of yours. You are probably judging yourself too harshly, something that comes with thinking critically, and with introspection. Those are good things.

You are nearing 11 months of success. I am sure there will be some mental ups and downs. But that level of success is nothing to sneeze at.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 06-10-2017 5:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13459
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 184 of 208 (811750)
06-11-2017 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Phat
06-10-2017 5:24 PM


Re: Day 328. Staring In The Mirror
Phat writes:

I have personally found that the addiction does get channeled into other directions. I still battle obsessive thoughts and behaviors in areas unrelated to gambling.


I think we all have such thoughts whether we call them "addictions" or not. (Some might call it Original Sin). The best we can hope for is to be able to channel them in less damaging directions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 06-10-2017 5:24 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 06-13-2017 8:23 AM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11665
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 185 of 208 (811800)
06-12-2017 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Phat
06-10-2017 5:24 PM


Re: Day 328. Staring In The Mirror
I have personally found that the addiction does get channeled into other directions.

Me too. I done got myself "addicted"* to going to the gym. But I've lost a third of my body weight and now I have a six-pack I can run about two miles and I just bought myself a new bicycle

It's way better than my previous addiction (which will go unnamed).
*Scare quote because I don't consider it to really be an addiction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 06-10-2017 5:24 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by NoNukes, posted 06-13-2017 1:06 AM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 189 by Phat, posted 06-13-2017 8:44 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 186 of 208 (811871)
06-13-2017 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by New Cat's Eye
06-12-2017 9:31 AM


Re: Day 328. Staring In The Mirror
It's way better than my previous addiction (which will go unnamed).

You stopped smoking...


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-12-2017 9:31 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-13-2017 10:42 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 187 of 208 (811887)
06-13-2017 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by ringo
06-11-2017 2:33 PM


Re: Day 328. Staring In The Mirror
ringo writes:


I think we all have such thoughts whether we call them "addictions" or not. (Some might call it Original Sin). The best we can hope for is to be able to channel them in less damaging directions.

You and I have discussed this before. I believe that the key word is obsessive. You may label your obsessions as preferences rather than addictions, but there is a distinct and measurable brain pattern that differentiates an addictive behavior from a simple chosen action.

One may claim that they prefer to have a drink every day and that since it harms no one they prefer not to self-classify it as an addiction. MRI scans may show a different story though. In other words, of course we love our chosen habits but we do not get to label them addictive or not. The MRI scans always confirm the classic changes that mark an addictive pattern in the brain.

The best we can hope for is to be able to channel them in less damaging directions.
Perhaps we can pick our chosen addiction---to a degree---but it still remains an addiction. The goal, in my mind, is to overcome the need to be obsessive/compulsive about anything and to be overall more rational, calm, and mindful.

Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by ringo, posted 06-11-2017 2:33 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 06-13-2017 11:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 188 of 208 (811889)
06-13-2017 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
12-30-2015 3:24 PM


Re: Rational Recovery Philosophy Examined
2015 Ringo writes:

My point is that I can understand what appeals to me and I can also understand that it isn't good for me - I can hold both understandings in my mind at once, even though they're contradictory. The question is, how do I change my behaviour to coincide with one understanding and not the other?

It is always your choice. Mindfulness involves honesty. I ask myself first of all if any of my habits and compulsions are in fact addictions. The next step is to choose whether or not to resist them. It's just that simple---yet it is not ever easy. Just as a salmon swims upstream to create life, mindfulness is a conscious effort against an ingrained thought pattern that is negatively reinforced through the addictive behavior.

As to how to choose: Be honest with yourself, weighing the short term pleasures with the long term consequences. Ask yourself whether changing the brain patterns...through sobriety---are worth the pain.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 12-30-2015 3:24 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 189 of 208 (811892)
06-13-2017 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by New Cat's Eye
06-12-2017 9:31 AM


Re: Day 328. Staring In The Mirror
NCE writes:

I done got myself "addicted"* to going to the gym. But I've lost a third of my body weight and now I have a six-pack I can run about two miles and I just bought myself a new bicycle ...

I was once addicted to exercise. I rode my bike an average of 25 miles a day for two years, in my early thirties. Looking back, I see clearly that I was addicted to exercise to the point where I felt bad...depressed, anxious, and guilty...if I missed even a day.

Obviously, the exercise itself was quite good for me. The anxiety and obsession may not have been ideal, however. Keyword: Balance. If I would have kept the habit going and yet addressed my obsession over having to spend each waking moment thinking about my progress, I would have achieved a mindful state of awareness and acceptance...a balance if you will. ( I still might buy a new bicycle...I need to exercise more and hang out on my computer less)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-12-2017 9:31 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-13-2017 10:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11665
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 190 of 208 (811909)
06-13-2017 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Phat
06-13-2017 8:44 AM


Re: Day 328. Staring In The Mirror
I was once addicted to exercise. I rode my bike an average of 25 miles a day for two years, in my early thirties. Looking back, I see clearly that I was addicted to exercise to the point where I felt bad...depressed, anxious, and guilty...if I missed even a day.

Working out makes me feel great! But yeah, if I miss for a few days I do start to feel worse... although it only seems "worse" as in not-better, but not really worse as in less than normal.

Obviously, the exercise itself was quite good for me. The anxiety and obsession may not have been ideal, however. Keyword: Balance. If I would have kept the habit going and yet addressed my obsession over having to spend each waking moment thinking about my progress, I would have achieved a mindful state of awareness and acceptance...a balance if you will.

Mindfulness is key. In fact, while lifting weights I enter this mental state that's kinda like meditation or something, but it allows me to be very mindful and I find it actually reduced my anxiety.

Physical activity, in general, seems to help with anxiety a lot. Sometimes when I feel the pull of my past addiction, I'll just go for a run or something. By the time I get back the feeling is gone and then I'm worn out and it doesn't come back. Worth a shot

( I still might buy a new bicycle...I need to exercise more and hang out on my computer less)

Sit-ups, push-ups, and pull-ups, Phat. Anywhere, anytime.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Phat, posted 06-13-2017 8:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by RAZD, posted 06-13-2017 3:22 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11665
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 191 of 208 (811910)
06-13-2017 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by NoNukes
06-13-2017 1:06 AM


I'm still addicted to nicotine (and caffeine), but I'm not going to play the game where you try to guess my past addiction and then we go through the process of elimination.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by NoNukes, posted 06-13-2017 1:06 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by NoNukes, posted 06-13-2017 11:41 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 208 (811921)
06-13-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by New Cat's Eye
06-13-2017 10:42 AM


I'm still addicted to nicotine (and caffeine), but I'm not going to play the game where you try to guess my past addiction and then we go through the process of elimination.

Don't worry about that happening. I've taken the only shot that I have any reason to suspect, and it was more of a hope than a guess. Smoking tobacco killed my dad a few decades ago.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-13-2017 10:42 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13459
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 193 of 208 (811927)
06-13-2017 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Phat
06-13-2017 8:23 AM


Re: Day 328. Staring In The Mirror
Phat writes:

MRI scans may show a different story though. In other words, of course we love our chosen habits but we do not get to label them addictive or not.


Well, you're the one who's labelling yourself as an addict. Have you had the MRI?

Personally, I'm a bit skeptical about the ability of an MRI to draw a hard line between "addiction" and "not addiction".

Phat writes:

The goal, in my mind, is to overcome the need to be obsessive/compulsive about anything and to be overall more rational, calm, and mindful.


Sorry, but I don't think that's possible.

"The fall" is nonsense, of course, but we are all "fallen" in the sense that we're not perfect. We can get better but we can't get perfect. I don't think we can ever remove every vestige of addiction (any of us, MRI or not).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 06-13-2017 8:23 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18863
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 194 of 208 (811944)
06-13-2017 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by New Cat's Eye
06-13-2017 10:40 AM


Re: Day 328. Staring In The Mirror
Physical activity, in general, seems to help with anxiety a lot.

It releases endorphins, natural opiates.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-13-2017 10:40 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 1:47 PM RAZD has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11665
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 195 of 208 (812051)
06-14-2017 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by RAZD
06-13-2017 3:22 PM


Re: Day 328. Staring In The Mirror
It releases endorphins, natural opiates.

There's more to it than that...

The "runners high" is a thing, that's for sure. But daily physical activity is doing wonders for my mental health and it's not just releasing endorphins that is doing it.

I've also gone to a healthful diet - my body has completely changed and that is having very positive affects on my mind.

My doctor said: "To be honest, all that exercise is probably helping your anxiety more than the medication I've given you... but don't stop taking it."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by RAZD, posted 06-13-2017 3:22 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by RAZD, posted 06-14-2017 2:34 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
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