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Author Topic:   You Will Always Have the Poor
ringo
Member
Posts: 13329
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 31 of 77 (756294)
04-17-2015 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
04-17-2015 12:33 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Faith writes:

Why are you so intent on accusing Christians of failure to help the poor when in fact they've always been known for the opposite?


The question is whether they are helping the poor enough. If you've given your last two mites, you've done all you can but if you keep one mite back for yourself....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 04-17-2015 12:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 77 (756295)
04-17-2015 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 12:40 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
How does it make it an eternal commandment?

Mark's Jesus reminds the disciples that after the coming events, they will still need to help the poor.

Matthew's Jesus does not remind the disciples of this and so Jesus never leads center stage.

Sounds to me like you're trying to make it that way.

Not at all. I'm pointing out that it is a possible way to interpret Matthew's omission.

That this scene was and has been perplexing to Christians is supported by the discussion Christians have around the issue and the fact that early gospel writers saw it necessary to edit this story in each of their retellings.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 12:40 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 77 (756297)
04-17-2015 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by NoNukes
04-17-2015 12:29 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
In fact, the Catholic Church is urging that we not interpret Jesus words in exactly the way that you are doing in the OP.

I have no favored interpretation. But there is a discussion among Christians surrounding this and it's probably because folks realize the scene causes some difficulty with Jesus' general attitude toward the poor.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 12:29 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 3:17 PM Jon has responded
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 4:23 PM Jon has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 77 (756298)
04-17-2015 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by NoNukes
04-17-2015 12:41 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
That still doesn't answer the question.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11565
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 35 of 77 (756299)
04-17-2015 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jon
04-17-2015 3:01 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Mark's Jesus reminds the disciples that after the coming events, they will still need to help the poor.

Matthew's Jesus does not remind the disciples of this and so Jesus never leads center stage.

No, that's not right. You're really stretching on that one.

And its not really about Jesus being center stage. He was just saying that it was okay for her to anoint Him with expensive oils instead of giving that money to the poor because she wouldn't have the opportunity to do so in the future like they would still have the opportunity to help the poor in the future.

The other point is that is okay to use money to glorify God and you don't have stop doing that because you're suppose to be helping the poor.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 3:01 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11565
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 36 of 77 (756300)
04-17-2015 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Jon
04-17-2015 3:03 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
But there is a discussion among Christians surrounding this and it's probably because folks realize the scene causes some difficulty with Jesus' general attitude toward the poor.

I don't think it causes difficulty. The straight-forward reading is plainly understandable.

The problem is that it can be used by people as support for their already held position of just not feeling like helping the poor that much.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 3:03 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 3:20 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 77 (756301)
04-17-2015 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 3:10 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
I think you are missing my point.

Matthew and John have made changes to the scene. Those changes alter the meaning of the story.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 3:10 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 77 (756302)
04-17-2015 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 3:17 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
The problem is that it can be used by people as support for their already held position of just not feeling like helping the poor that much.

Okay. And aside from dismissing the whole thing, what can be said to counter those interpretations?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 3:17 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 3:41 PM Jon has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11565
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 39 of 77 (756304)
04-17-2015 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Jon
04-17-2015 3:20 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
From Message 37:

I think you are missing my point.
Matthew and John have made changes to the scene. Those changes alter the meaning of the story.

I don't think they change the meaning of the story. The story means what I've been saying.

They've changed some of the details, but those don't alter the meaning.

When Matthew omits the line about still being able to help the poor when you want, it is not saying that you don't ever have to help the poor again.

And John's additions shed more light on the reasoning behind what Jesus said: Judas was asking out of greed instead of actually wanting to help the poor.

From Message 38:

The problem is that it can be used by people as support for their already held position of just not feeling like helping the poor that much.

Okay. And aside from dismissing the whole thing, what can be said to counter those interpretations?

quote:
the scene has more to do with glorifying God than it does with the poor, with a reminder that Jesus is God.

The lesson I see there is that, while we are charged to help the poor, that doesn't mean that you have to stop adoring God in the process.

Or, even though helping the poor is an important service, you don't have to stop all the other good things you are doing to focus solely on that.


quote:
Jesus was pointing out that He wasn't going to be around for very long, so if they wanted to adore Him then they'd need to do it now. But the poor weren't going anywhere so, they could still help them after Jesus had left.

Its like when you're putting something off, and you go: "Meh, I can always do that later". Its not so much that you can always do that later as it its that in practically all ways, you have the ability to get it done later.


quote:
Jesus wasn't saying to not help the poor, He was saying that it was a good thing that she was anointing Him, and that you don't have to stop doing all other good things in order to help the poor at all times, especially when time is of the essence. The poor aren't going anywhere, they'll be there and you can help them, but Jesus was going somewhere, so it made sense to help Him right then.

quote:
He was just saying that it was okay for her to anoint Him with expensive oils instead of giving that money to the poor because she wouldn't have the opportunity to do so in the future like they would still have the opportunity to help the poor in the future.

The other point is that is okay to use money to glorify God and you don't have stop doing that because you're suppose to be helping the poor.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 3:20 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 3:43 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 77 (756305)
04-17-2015 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 3:41 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
They've changed some of the details, but those don't alter the meaning.

Then what's the purpose of the changes?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 3:41 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 3:47 PM Jon has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11565
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 41 of 77 (756306)
04-17-2015 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Jon
04-17-2015 3:43 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Then what's the purpose of the changes?

I'm not convinced they were on purpose.

Assuming they were, John's just provides additional details and Matthew's seems to be trying to take the focus off of the poor.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 3:43 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 3:58 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 77 (756307)
04-17-2015 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 3:47 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
I'm not convinced they were on purpose.

All that stuff about Judas was just John's pen slipping?

Don't be ridiculous. The changes were intentional.

Assuming they were, John's just provides additional details...

Why did John feel those details were necessary?

Matthew's seems to be trying to take the focus off of the poor.

Okay. And why did Matthew want to take away that focus? Do you, personally, see anything wrong with Mark's account? Do you feel either Matthew's or John's versions to be improvements?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 3:47 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 4:19 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11565
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 43 of 77 (756308)
04-17-2015 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Jon
04-17-2015 3:58 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
The changes were intentional.

I meant that I'm not convinced they were changed to fulfill the purpose of altering the meaning of the story.

Why did John feel those details were necessary?

I don't know. John added in all kinds of details throughout the Gospel.

And why did Matthew want to take away that focus?

I don't know.

Do you, personally, see anything wrong with Mark's account?

No.

Do you feel either Matthew's or John's versions to be improvements?

Not Matthews's, although the line he omitted was a little redundant.

John's additional details are an improvement if they're true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 3:58 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9741
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 44 of 77 (756309)
04-17-2015 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Jon
04-17-2015 3:03 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
I have no favored interpretation. But there is a discussion among Christians surrounding this and it's probably because folks realize the scene causes some difficulty with Jesus' general attitude toward the poor.

It provides an excuse for people who need such a thing. However a person would equate his own situation with that of Jesus impending death on the cross surely misses the entire point, if indeed that person is not a complete ass.

And while you claim to have no favored interpretation, the one you are using for this thread is one that none of the posters here who claim to be Christians accept as correct. It is certainly possible to read the truth from Matthew's words. Why are you insisting that the writer actually meant something else?

It is, in fact, the Gospel according to Matthew, that is of the most assistance when chiding dispensationalists and no works people who claim to have faith about their duty to serve the poor. There is no reason to assume that in this one instance Matthew offers an excuse to those same lay abouts.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 3:03 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 4:40 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 77 (756310)
04-17-2015 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by NoNukes
04-17-2015 4:23 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
And while you claim to have no favored interpretation, the one you are using for this thread is one that none of the posters here who claim to be Christians accept as correct. It is certainly possible to read the truth from Matthew's words. Why are you insisting that the writer actually meant something else?

You are mistaking me asking questions with me having a hard-and-fast opinion on this matter.

It is, in fact, the Gospel according to Matthew, that is of the most assistance when chiding dispensationalists and no works people who claim to have faith about their duty to serve the poor. There is no reason to assume that in this one instance Matthew offers an excuse to those same lay abouts.

That makes Matthew's omission all the more strange, don't you think?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 4:23 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 6:56 PM Jon has responded
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2015 4:07 AM Jon has responded

  
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