White Privilege

I just picked this quote from RAZD because it seems to summarise the position of others here and for once I'm closer to Faith's feelings about it than others seem to be.I think it's wrong to equate being able to go about our business without oppression as a privilege and that it is somehow negative. Surely this is a state of civilisation that we all aspire to?The fact that there is a section of society that feels they have not achieved this state is a matter for concern and action by those that have, but it's not something that those that have achieved it should be criticised for.

It's not a privilege, it's a right - a human right that should be available to all.The whole idea of privilege is a wrong-headed anachronism. It's not wrong for any class of people to aspire to that kind of freedom and those that have should only be criticised if they pull up the ladder and discriminate against those that haven't got there. That's not a black versus white thing, that's a bigot versus and human thing.

I didn't say anything about 'natural' - there is no such thing. There's just rights that we grant ourselves as our societies become enlightened. In our culture these are not privileges granted to a few, they apply to all.It's not a privilege to be white, it's an accident of birth and an inequality in our society that some parts of it still struggle to achieve in practice the freedoms that have actually been been granted to all.

The rights apply to all, the fact that some appear to enjoy less of them is a flaw in our society, not a flaw in the rights. Correct, it's not a privilege.Assuming the generality that you claim - which I don't - whites do not receive privileged treatment, they recieve the treatment that the rights grant them. Blacks, it is claimed, do not yet receive them in full. The rights have obviously been granted to all - that's not in debate, I hope - the laws and conventions exist. The fact that some are still fighting to achieve them in reality is a damn shame but that doesn't make those that have full access to the rights 'privileged' - unless you're using the word to mean lucky.

I have no desire to argue semantics - a greater waste of time has not yet been invented - and I totally agree that some large sectors of our societies are disadvantaged by their ethnicity and background (not just blacks but also the disabled, the poor and the uneducated.)I'm simply making the point that those enjoying the full freedoms of society should not be regarded as having a negative value in that society; calling it a white privilege as though it's a status granted by decree to an elite few is both wrong and devisive. It's the status of the disadvantaged that is the negative, the status of the advantaged is what our societies says should be the norm - it's not a privilege to achieve a right, it's what should be expected of all.

As usual Ringo, you wish to pointlessly argue the meaning of words rather than grapple with the underlying ideas behind them. As usual, I will bow out at this point.

yes it is. As soon as you label an entire class of people - based in this case only on the colour of their skin - with an negative value, you are being divisive. And, racist. Agreed. Agreed This is the part I disagree with. It's not a privilege to walk down a street unassailed by the state - it's a right. The fact that some people in some circumstances are subject to this is a failure in society to provide those rights equally. The solution is not to condemn those that don't suffer the oppression, it's to work to achieve this equality. You appear to be using privilege to mean something different to me. If you're meaning massive inequality of wealth (and therefore opportunity), then I'm with you.

I am doing no such thing. I am arguing that calling all white people privileged is as racist as calling all black people lazy or whatever stereotypical slander you can think of.I'm arguing that the term 'privileged white people' puts a negative value on an entire class of people. You're assuming that I'm white and that I'm feeling condemned. You also say I'm being defensive. Perhaps you could consider that I'm simply arguing a fair position. I'm neither being defensive nor denying that some sectors of society are oppressed and suffer many deprivations and have said this many times. My argument is that this is no reason to abuse sectors of society that aren't oppressed in this way. It is an argument for those that are better off to do something about it.

^^^ I don't disagree with any of that and have been saying the same myself.But calling all whites privileged is dumb and not the way to help those that are disadvantaged in society - both non-white and white.

Whites are not privileged. Some whites enjoy the rights that all people are supposed to have. As do some blacks. Those whites and blacks that do enjoy those rights are not in some weird way negatively burdened by it. It's an insult to a whole class of people to imply that they are suppressing another sector of society just by being white. Right, we're getting there. On average, and particularly in the US and some specific parts of the US. The racial disparity in the jail population in particular is a national disgrace. I don't use any word for it. My argument is that you cannot slander a whole sector of the population by calling them 'privileged' - in the negative way that is intended - just because - on average - they are not followed down supermarket isles being suspected of shoplifting for no other reason than they are white. It's bullshit.The problem is not one of white privilege, it's one of black disadvantage. Like RAZD said above, you can't solve the problem of black disadvantage by removing the rights of white people which is implied by this antiquated concept of 'white privilege'.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Don't worry, I tire of being patronised very quickly. Obviously not. Being white does not equal being racist. Classifying all white people as racist, is racist. It's not a hard thing to undestand. A blaket statement claiming that white people are racist, is, by definition a racist statement.If you wish to reply, try to leave out the personal accusations and patronising tone - it's just nicer that way.

I know what you're talking about and I agree with you :-)I have said many, many times that there is inequality in society, particularly so in the USA between black and white communities. So much is obvious.The solution is not to label all white people as elitist and privileged as if they were a homologous, conspiritorial grouping and making a positive - achieving democratic freedoms - into a negative. Some people - not just whites - have what society aspires to and need to be the people to sort the mess out.But also the problem is far more complicated than this terrible black and white thing you guys seem to want it to be - it's insulting to both colours and part of the problem itself.

You and others here use the term 'white priviledge' to negatively label an entire class of people indiscriminately based entirely and only on the colour of their skin - that is racist and it is also untrue.Great swathes of white American society are disadvantaged and many blacks enjoy what you call white privileges and I call human rights.For the final time, I am not saying that there are not sectors of society that have not yet achieved these rights but that it's divisive and a continuance of the racial difference problem to use antiquated blanket terms when talking about what is a actualy a problem of discrimination and disadvantage across society as a whole.

I won't bother to reply to the rest of your post - I'd just be repeating myself and I don't disagree in principle with the underlying issues - which are that many if not most black people are disadvantaged by the colour of their skin, particularly in the USA.My objection is the blanket use of the term 'white privilege' as though we're almost back in the slave days. A man with both legs is not privileged amongst a group of veterans with no legs. He has what everyone should have and they are disadvantaged because they don't.To begin rebalancing this we need to stop blaming people on both sides for being the colour that they are and start talking in less divisive terms about people's rights to be treated equally.

Black disadvantage.Privilege has unnecessary and unwarranted connotations which don't help the battle to resolve the problems of discrimination it just continues it.And not just black; religious, female, hispanic, homosexual, impoverished, uneducated-white, mentally ill - all disadvantaged.Start talking about discrimination and disadvantage and I'm with you.