Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 120 (8782 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-21-2017 8:03 AM
90 online now:
Coragyps, DOCJ, herebedragons, PaulK, RAZD (5 members, 85 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: evilsorcerer1
Post Volume:
Total: 816,593 Year: 21,199/21,208 Month: 1,632/2,326 Week: 87/881 Day: 9/78 Hour: 1/2

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
2345678Next
Author Topic:   Is the future inevitable?
YellowJay
Junior Member (Idle past 287 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 12-07-2015


Message 1 of 109 (773719)
12-08-2015 10:33 AM


Hello,

If one could create an exact duplicate universe right at the start of some sporting event, would both events unfold identically?

Any response is much appreciated.

Jay

Edited by YellowJay, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2015 10:47 AM YellowJay has responded
 Message 16 by Larni, posted 12-09-2015 12:21 PM YellowJay has not yet responded

    
YellowJay
Junior Member (Idle past 287 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 12-07-2015


Message 2 of 109 (773720)
12-08-2015 10:38 AM


Opps, wrong place
Opps, I meant this to go in the "simple questions - no debate" thread.
    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4980
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 3 of 109 (773723)
12-08-2015 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by YellowJay
12-08-2015 10:33 AM


Given that there is chaos and randomness in both universes, they would gradually go out of synch. But Usain Bolt is still likely to win the 100m in both universes. A better question would be 'would the weather be identical in 6 month's time.'

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by YellowJay, posted 12-08-2015 10:33 AM YellowJay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by YellowJay, posted 12-08-2015 10:57 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 12 by caffeine, posted 12-08-2015 3:59 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 13 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-08-2015 4:20 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
YellowJay
Junior Member (Idle past 287 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 12-07-2015


Message 4 of 109 (773725)
12-08-2015 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tangle
12-08-2015 10:47 AM


Hello,

Thank you for the reply. And sorry if I'm a bit slow on this, but would your better question "would the weather be identical in 6 month's time" still give the same answer?

Thanks,

Jay


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2015 10:47 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2015 11:36 AM YellowJay has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4980
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 5 of 109 (773736)
12-08-2015 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by YellowJay
12-08-2015 10:57 AM


If both universes contain randomness - as ours does - then systems like the weather that are regarded as chaotic won't keep in synch. The further away from the start postion you get the more difference there will be between the two systems.

A sporting event that starts identically and lasts a few seconds is unlikely to be effected by minute changes.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by YellowJay, posted 12-08-2015 10:57 AM YellowJay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-08-2015 12:07 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 6 of 109 (773737)
12-08-2015 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tangle
12-08-2015 11:36 AM


Is Randomness inevitable?
Does this suggest...given chaos theory...that there would never be such a thing as "identical" universes??

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2015 11:36 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2015 12:39 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 11 by AZPaul3, posted 12-08-2015 2:20 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4980
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 7 of 109 (773739)
12-08-2015 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
12-08-2015 12:07 PM


Re: Is Randomness inevitable?
Someone will probably pop up and say that one fundamental particle or somesuch is identical to another, but until they do I'll say that there's no such thing as an identical anything is there?

For two universes to be identical over time, they would have to be totally deterministic - no possibility of chance, ruling out a universe like our own.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-08-2015 12:07 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by NoNukes, posted 12-08-2015 1:02 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 9 by Diomedes, posted 12-08-2015 1:14 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 109 (773742)
12-08-2015 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tangle
12-08-2015 12:39 PM


Re: Is Randomness inevitable?
Someone will probably pop up and say that one fundamental particle or somesuch is identical to another, but until they do I'll say that there's no such thing as an identical anything is there?

I think that's my cue. All electrons are identical.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2015 12:39 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2015 1:20 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 644
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 9 of 109 (773743)
12-08-2015 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tangle
12-08-2015 12:39 PM


Re: Is Randomness inevitable?
Someone will probably pop up and say that one fundamental particle or somesuch is identical to another, but until they do I'll say that there's no such thing as an identical anything is there?
For two universes to be identical over time, they would have to be totally deterministic - no possibility of chance, ruling out a universe like our own.

I guess the only scenario I could envision whereby both universes would be identical is if there is some kind of fundamental entanglement at the quantum level that is keeping both at parity. I have no idea how that mechanism might function or if it is even feasible given what we know about particle physics. I am kind of falling back on my tech knowledge with things like mirrored file systems and what not.

My instincts though lean more towards Tangle's view. If some replication event occurs that creates a duplicate universe, then specific uncertainty, randomness and chaos in each independent universe would eventual cause them to go out of sync.

So in my universes, despite their initial inherent similarities, only one Spock has a goatee.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2015 12:39 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4980
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 10 of 109 (773744)
12-08-2015 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by NoNukes
12-08-2015 1:02 PM


Re: Is Randomness inevitable?
You're welcome ;-)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by NoNukes, posted 12-08-2015 1:02 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(1)
Message 11 of 109 (773749)
12-08-2015 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
12-08-2015 12:07 PM


Re: Is Randomness inevitable?
I'll disagree with Tangle in this one respect.

If we consider we live in an infinite universe then there are an infinite number of "spaces" in that universe. Each space must have a number of particles within it which is finite and thus a number of configurations for those particles in that space which is also finite. The number of particles and number of configurations will be very large but they both will be finite. In an infinite universe of infinite spaces there must be a space where the number of particles and their configuration is exactly the same as any specific space you so choose.

If the space we choose is our own space, our known "universe" as we see it, then in an infinite universe there must be another such space of exactly the same number of particles in exactly the same configuration as we see here. An identical "universe" to our own. And, infinities being what they are, there are an infinite number of such "universes" identical to our own. And an infinite subset of those infinite universes like our own will have the exact same histories, past, present and future.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-08-2015 12:07 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1322
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 12 of 109 (773757)
12-08-2015 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tangle
12-08-2015 10:47 AM


Given that there is chaos and randomness in both universes, they would gradually go out of synch. But Usain Bolt is still likely to win the 100m in both universes. A better question would be 'would the weather be identical in 6 month's time.'

This strikes me as a misunderstanding of what chaos is. Chaotic systems are unpredictable because of their sensitive dependence on initial conditions. So, if the other universe was identical in almost everything, the chaotic nature of reality would probably lead them to nevertheless diverge signifcantly over time.

If they really were exact duplicates, as YellowJay asked, then it wouldn't matter how chaotic they were, they would evolve identically. Chaotic systems are wholly deterministic. Their apparent randomness is only a reflection of their complexity. If we understood the rules which governed them perfectly, and the exact value of every relevant variable, we would be able to predict outcomes precisely.

Now, if the world is really probabilistic on a quantum level you may be right, since this could be a genuinely random element, but I've never been able to get my head around quantum physics.

Edited by caffeine, : tags


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2015 10:47 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Diomedes, posted 12-08-2015 4:24 PM caffeine has not yet responded
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2015 5:40 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 13 of 109 (773762)
12-08-2015 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tangle
12-08-2015 10:47 AM


Given that there is chaos and randomness in both universes, they would gradually go out of synch. But Usain Bolt is still likely to win the 100m in both universes.

Well, if both universes incorporated randomness from the start, then 13 billion years later it's not likely that there'd be an Usain Bolt.

And I agree with caffeine that you've misunderstood the concept of chaos, it's quite a precise term. Two chaotic systems which started off exactly the same would keep in perfect sync.

I can explain chaos further if anyone would like me to.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2015 10:47 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 644
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 14 of 109 (773766)
12-08-2015 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by caffeine
12-08-2015 3:59 PM


Now, if the world is really probabilistic on a quantum level you may be right, since this could be a genuinely random element, but I've never been able to get my head around quantum physics.

This is what I was pondering as well. Maybe one of our resident physicists can chime in here with some more detail on quantum level aspects of how things operate. But from a holistic level, this leads me back to the whole nature of quantum physics, randomness and most importantly, uncertainty.

If one universe is replicated from another in its entirety, then this actually opens up a whole can of worms with regards to how one can achieve that knowing that the Heisenberg principle would need to apply; i.e. the actual nature of the particles at the quantum level is not certain. This is why I brought up entanglement. If there is a way to replicate the particles and entangle them exactly, then I suppose you could argue that the two universes could then be inexorably linked. Thereby having them progress identically and at the same rate.

Ultimately, the actual physics of this is beyond me. Anyone have a hotline to Stephen Hawking's cell phone?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by caffeine, posted 12-08-2015 3:59 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4980
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 15 of 109 (773773)
12-08-2015 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by caffeine
12-08-2015 3:59 PM


Caffeiene & Dr A

I understand the concept of chaos - at least in words - that's why I was careful to include both chaos and randomness into the game.

A system like ours that has both chaos and randomness would inevitably spin out of sync.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by caffeine, posted 12-08-2015 3:59 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

  
1
2345678Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017