Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8796 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 10-22-2017 10:27 PM
355 online now:
DC85, DrJones*, Faith, granpa (4 members, 351 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Upcoming Birthdays: willietern
Happy Birthday: Flyer75
Post Volume:
Total: 821,058 Year: 25,664/21,208 Month: 1,291/2,338 Week: 48/364 Day: 48/57 Hour: 0/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
45678Next
Author Topic:   Is the future inevitable?
Phat
Member
Posts: 9903
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 31 of 109 (774012)
12-12-2015 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Tangle
12-12-2015 10:48 AM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
Do we have a reasonable case that all variables have an equal influence?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2015 10:48 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2015 11:14 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 32 of 109 (774016)
12-12-2015 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
12-12-2015 10:50 AM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
Phat writes:

Do we have a reasonable case that all variables have an equal influence?

This makes no sense Phat. All variables cannot have equal influence - a force 10 gale has more effect than a squirrel, but what has that got to do with anything?

The question I asked you was do you think that where a sycamore seed lands is predetermined?

If no, then you have your answer.

If yes, my next questions are how and why? (And you realise that if the seed's landing point is pre-determined and therefore unchangeable, your concept of free will is defunct.)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 12-12-2015 10:50 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 12-12-2015 2:42 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9903
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 33 of 109 (774056)
12-12-2015 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Tangle
12-12-2015 11:14 AM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
The question I asked you was do you think that where a sycamore seed lands is predetermined?

If no, then you have your answer.

If yes, my next questions are how and why? (And you realise that if the seed's landing point is pre-determined and therefore unchangeable, your concept of free will is defunct.)

Well, I go by my slogan---I think that chance has no power to change anything....thus I believe God did it all and that all is pre-determined. So yes, I'll give up my illusion of free will for the moment. Now, however, I'm stuck with trying to explain how God has to micromanage every detail of every variable in order to create the situations that exist---and I'll admit that it all sounds unreasonable.
AbE: I even searched our database and found this discussion!
Chance moves in mysterious ways.
Thread ▲ Details

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2015 11:14 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2015 3:08 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 34 of 109 (774058)
12-12-2015 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
12-12-2015 2:42 PM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
Phat writes:

Well, I go by my slogan---I think that chance has no power to change anything....

What's the point of a slogan - especially one that's just plain wrong?

thus I believe God did it all and that all is pre-determined.

You believe in god because you have a slogan?

So yes, I'll give up my illusion of free will for the moment.

Yikes, are you sure? That destroys the whole concept of sin.

Now, however, I'm stuck with trying to explain how God has to micromanage every detail of every variable in order to create

Well that's the easy bit - he can do anything, no problem. That's the point of a god.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 12-12-2015 2:42 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1346
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 35 of 109 (774114)
12-13-2015 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Tangle
12-12-2015 10:37 AM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
Do you believe that where each individual seed lands has been preditermined?

Or do you think it more likely that that can not be true given the enormous number of variables involved - almost all of which are random and/or chaotic.

The number of variables is of no relevance to the question of determinism. If there are billions upon billions of variables to consider, the result would still be predetermined if the processes that decide those variables and the way they interact are deterministic. All that matters is whether the world actually is deterministic at a basic level, and if it's not then the result is no predetermined, regardless of whether there are a billion relevant variables or only one,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2015 10:37 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2015 12:47 PM caffeine has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 36 of 109 (774115)
12-13-2015 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by caffeine
12-13-2015 12:41 PM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
Sure. But the fact that there are billions of variables which all interact just demonstrates how rediculous the concept of pre-determinism is.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by caffeine, posted 12-13-2015 12:41 PM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by caffeine, posted 12-13-2015 4:05 PM Tangle has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1346
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 37 of 109 (774138)
12-13-2015 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Tangle
12-13-2015 12:47 PM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
Sure. But the fact that there are billions of variables which all interact just demonstrates how rediculous the concept of pre-determinism is.

How? If you mean it makes prediction difficult, then no argument, but it has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the universe is deterministic, as you just agreed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2015 12:47 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2015 5:38 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 38 of 109 (774141)
12-13-2015 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by caffeine
12-13-2015 4:05 PM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
Caffeine writes:

How? If you mean it makes prediction difficult, then no argument,

Substitute difficult with impossible and I agree. (re. sycamore seed dispersal)

but it has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the universe is deterministic, as you just agreed.

Well obviously I agree. But it does rather point to the scale of the problem.

It may be simpler just to say that if there is any element of probability involved, then it can not be a deterministic system.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by caffeine, posted 12-13-2015 4:05 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ProtoTypical, posted 12-14-2015 7:59 AM Tangle has responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1754
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 39 of 109 (774169)
12-14-2015 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Tangle
12-13-2015 5:38 PM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
It may be simpler just to say that if there is any element of probability involved, then it can not be a deterministic system.

Probability only refers to our ability to predict an outcome. That we see the universe as a set of probabilities has no impact on the fact that matter behaves in a perfectly deterministic manner. The only way that it is not a deterministic system is if matter does not behave in a consistent manner. Unpredictable does equal undetermined.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2015 5:38 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2015 8:31 AM ProtoTypical has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 40 of 109 (774170)
12-14-2015 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by ProtoTypical
12-14-2015 7:59 AM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
PT writes:

Probability only refers to our ability to predict an outcome. That we see the universe as a set of probabilities has no impact on the fact that matter behaves in a perfectly deterministic manner. The only way that it is not a deterministic system is if matter does not behave in a consistent manner. Unpredictable does equal undetermined.

If we're not careful, this will decend into war of definitions.

The original question was if two universes came into being in identical states, would they remain synchronised (I'm paraphrasing.)

The answer is that if the universes are like ours - probabalistic - then they will go out of synch.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ProtoTypical, posted 12-14-2015 7:59 AM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ProtoTypical, posted 12-14-2015 8:58 AM Tangle has responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1754
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 41 of 109 (774175)
12-14-2015 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Tangle
12-14-2015 8:31 AM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
If we're not careful, this will decend into war of definitions.

Also known as a conversation or debate.

The answer is that if the universes are like ours - probabalistic - then they will go out of synch.

The answer is that if the universes were identical then they would not go out of synch. The other answer is that it is impossible to actually have 2 things that are absolutely identical because if you did then they would be the same thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2015 8:31 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2015 9:10 AM ProtoTypical has responded
 Message 44 by caffeine, posted 12-14-2015 1:25 PM ProtoTypical has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 42 of 109 (774177)
12-14-2015 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by ProtoTypical
12-14-2015 8:58 AM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
PT writes:

The answer is that if the universes were identical then they would not go out of synch.


That's not the case. If there is probablility in the systems, they will inevitabley lose sync.

I could choose to do something or not on the toss of a coin - there would then be a 50% chance of the two worlds differing. If I do it 1,000,000 times it's a certainty that they will (unless you feel the need to be pedantic about it there still being an infinitesimally low probability that they will not.)

The other answer is that it is impossible to actually have 2 things that are absolutely identical because if you did then they would be the same thing.

Eh? It's already been said that electrons are identical. Is there only one of them then?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ProtoTypical, posted 12-14-2015 8:58 AM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 12-14-2015 1:06 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 46 by ProtoTypical, posted 12-15-2015 8:19 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9903
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 43 of 109 (774205)
12-14-2015 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Tangle
12-14-2015 9:10 AM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
Tangle writes:

It's already been said that electrons are identical. Is there only one of them then?

George Carlin seemed to think so..
The Big Electron

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2015 9:10 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1346
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 44 of 109 (774210)
12-14-2015 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ProtoTypical
12-14-2015 8:58 AM


Re: Is Truth Unavoidable or is it random?
Would you prefer 'conguent' to 'identical'?

The answer is that if the universes were identical then they would not go out of synch.

Wasn't all the talk of quantum physics and hidden variables supposed to demonstrate that they would, because particles behave non-deterministically at a quantum level?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ProtoTypical, posted 12-14-2015 8:58 AM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ProtoTypical, posted 12-15-2015 8:20 AM caffeine has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 45 of 109 (774233)
12-14-2015 9:46 PM


Two Points...
  1. Only science can answer the question of whether the Universe we inhabit is deterministic and whether we ourselves, and other living sentient beings, have the ability to overcome such determinism
  2. The answer to the question will not and cannot have any effect on our sense of personal responsibility
One doesn't seem to have happened yet; and two makes it a pretty low priority.

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ProtoTypical, posted 12-15-2015 8:51 AM Jon has responded

  
Prev12
3
45678Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017