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Author Topic:   Does the history of life require "macroevolution"?
Faith
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 16 of 126 (812036)
06-14-2017 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Taq
06-14-2017 11:26 AM


All the increases in genetic diversity by mutation still get reduced when you are getting evolution, meaning an isolated population with new gene frequencies that may become a new species. Evolution always cuts down the genetic diversity, no matter what.

Also the mutation is occurring to a gene, which governs a particular trait, so the best you can get is a new version of that trait. It may even be selected and become part of the new species, but it will never get you beyond the one trait of that one species.

AND that many beneficial mutations in a sex cell, which is the only way they would get passed on, is not possible anyway.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 17 of 126 (812038)
06-14-2017 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
06-14-2017 12:06 PM


Re: Simple Example
Faith writes:

Mutations are not microevolution. Microevolution is changes in the phenotype not the DNA. Mutations may or may not play a part in a new phenotype.

How else can you get changes in phenotype other than changes in the DNA sequence?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 12:06 PM Faith has responded

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Taq
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Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 18 of 126 (812039)
06-14-2017 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
06-14-2017 12:08 PM


Faith writes:

All the increases in genetic diversity by mutation still get reduced when you are getting evolution,

And then genetic diversity increases again when new mutations occur.

Evolution always cuts down the genetic diversity, no matter what.

Mutations add genetic diversity.

Also the mutation is occurring to a gene, which governs a particular trait, so the best you can get is a new version of that trait. It may even be selected and become part of the new species, but it will never get you beyond the one trait of that one species.

Then how is it that different species have different traits?

AND that many beneficial mutations in a sex cell, which is the only way they would get passed on, is not possible anyway.

Based on what evidence?

There are 40 million mutations that separate chimps and humans, yet they both function just fine.


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 Message 16 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 12:08 PM Faith has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 19 of 126 (812042)
06-14-2017 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taq
06-14-2017 12:21 PM


Re: Simple Example
You don't need changes in the DNA sequence at all. You could get a new breed or species or subspecies without a single mutation. It's just a matter of changed gene frequencies.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Taq, posted 06-14-2017 12:21 PM Taq has responded

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Faith
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Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 20 of 126 (812043)
06-14-2017 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Taq
06-14-2017 12:24 PM


It doesn't matter how many mutations you have, TO GET EVOLUTION, MEANING A CHANGE IN A POPULATION, THEY HAVE TO BE DECREASED. Add a hundred if you like, you are going to have to get rid of most of them in order to have evolution.
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Tangle
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From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 21 of 126 (812044)
06-14-2017 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
06-14-2017 12:08 PM


Faith writes:

Evolution always cuts down the genetic diversity, no matter what.

This isn't correct. It's not evolution that reduces genetic diversity it's isolation. If a small group of organisms become separated from the main group they will have less diversity than the majority - obviously. Taken as a whole though, nothing has changed.

The two groups may then diverge as a consequence of selection or drift. Eventually the two groups will no longer interbreed and speciation will have said to have happened.

Overall, there's now more diversity than before - two seperate species must be more diverse than one single species when added together.

If you imagine a thousand creatures were a group of 50 get seperated, that main group is unlikely to lose any diversity at all.

But it's very likely that the smaller group will have relatively low diversity within its own species because of bottleneck effects - but this is not a given - a fast breeding organism with a high mutation rate may recover diversity very quickly.

But over long periods of time mutations must increase diversity - we see it happening.


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Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
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Taq
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Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 22 of 126 (812045)
06-14-2017 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
06-14-2017 12:37 PM


Re: Simple Example
Faith writes:

You don't need changes in the DNA sequence at all. You could get a new breed or species or subspecies without a single mutation. It's just a matter of changed gene frequencies.

How do you get new phenotypes beyond those that are possible with combinations of already existing alleles?


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Taq
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Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 23 of 126 (812046)
06-14-2017 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
06-14-2017 12:39 PM


Faith writes:

It doesn't matter how many mutations you have, TO GET EVOLUTION, MEANING A CHANGE IN A POPULATION, THEY HAVE TO BE DECREASED. Add a hundred if you like, you are going to have to get rid of most of them in order to have evolution.

In my example we started with this DNA sequence:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

After several steps, we ended up with this DNA sequence:

AAATAAAATAAATAAAAAA

Are you saying that a 15% (3 out of 19 bases) change in DNA sequence is not evolution?


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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11556
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 24 of 126 (812054)
06-14-2017 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
06-14-2017 12:39 PM


It doesn't matter how many mutations you have, TO GET EVOLUTION, MEANING A CHANGE IN A POPULATION, THEY HAVE TO BE DECREASED.

I don't believe you. In fact, I know that isn't true.

What humans did to dogs is not what nature does to the other species.

Also:


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RAZD
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Posts: 18805
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 25 of 126 (812061)
06-14-2017 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
06-14-2017 12:06 PM


Re: Simple Example
Mutations are not microevolution. Microevolution is changes in the phenotype not the DNA ...

WRONG. The phenotype is based on the expressed genes in the genotype, and there are several ways new mutations can be expressed.

Mutations can affect fetal development (thalidomide caused mutation) or be expressed in the phenotype (black pocket mice, dark peppered moths etc), or they can be neutral and later utilized with a following mutation to confer a benefit (several examples).

You talk about hidden alleles, but ignore mutations. That is you avoiding the evidence.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 12:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 26 of 126 (812065)
06-14-2017 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by RAZD
06-14-2017 2:53 PM


Re: Simple Example
Mutations are not necessary for evolution.
This message is a reply to:
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Stile
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Posts: 2924
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 27 of 126 (812069)
06-14-2017 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
06-13-2017 9:16 PM


Faith writes:

You can get lots of variation and lots of new species from mere splits in the population, but eventually enough evolution in one direction will lead to the condition of depleted genetic diversity from which further evolution is impossible. Evolution defeats evolution. You can never get anything but variations on a species, never a truly new species.

If your description of evolution was correct... then your conclusion would also be correct.

However, your description of evolution is not correct.
It's not really "wrong" though... just more "incomplete."

Your description of evolution does accurately (enough) describe a very small subset of evolution and how some very small specifics actually work.
And if that was the only way evolution worked... you would be correct and your conclusion would, again, also be correct.

But it is, in fact, only a very small subset. There are many, many other ways evolution works. Most of those other ways include an increase in genetic information (from mutations) along the way.

In fact, even the specific subset you describe includes mutations and a resulting increase in genetic information. It's just that the specific subset you describe 'evolves' faster than the mutation rate generally has to increase the genetic information by any significant amount. And you still end up with the 'net loss of genetic information' in the small area you're describing.


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Stile
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Posts: 2924
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 28 of 126 (812070)
06-14-2017 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
06-14-2017 3:03 PM


Re: Simple Example
Faith writes:

Mutations are not necessary for evolution.

That is true.

It is also true that mutations are an extremely large part of evolution.


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RAZD
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Posts: 18805
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 29 of 126 (812086)
06-14-2017 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
06-14-2017 3:03 PM


Re: Simple Example
Mutations are not necessary for evolution.

Mutations are not necessary for some evolution, but they are involved in some evolution, evolution that results in new phenotypes (like black mice).

When you only talk about half of the vast expanse of evolution, then your explanation is only half vast.

Mutations happen, regularly.

Some mutations affect phenotypes directly, and thus are open to selection - ie are part of evolution.

Some mutations affect phenotypes indirectly (when coupled with another mutation for instance), and thus are then open to selection - ie are part of evolution.

We have evidence of this, so your denial is useless.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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Taq
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Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 30 of 126 (812088)
06-14-2017 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
06-14-2017 3:03 PM


Re: Simple Example
Faith writes:

Mutations are not necessary for evolution.

Doesn't change the fact that evolution does occur through mutations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 3:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 7:41 PM Taq has responded

  
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