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Author Topic:   Religious Special Pleading
Modulous
Member (Idle past 85 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 76 of 354 (829620)
03-10-2018 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ringo
03-10-2018 10:43 AM


Nobody should force harmful things on non-consenting people

Exactly the point of this thread.

It has been shown that such things are harmful.

If you can show me the harm for doing it to an 8 day old child I'd be interested to see it. I'd be fascinated to see that applying pressure with lips and tongue is harmful but applying pressure with a wetwipe is not harmful and slicing bits off is not harmful.


Children can not consent to sexual activity, education, medical procedures, etc.

That was rather my point, yes. I was questioning why your comment - "What I'm against is the government telling me not to harm myself." was relevant in a discussion about doing things to other people who cannot consent.

My point is that if nobody talks about a problem, it's hard to establish that there is a problem.

But as has been established in this very thread, people are talking about this problem. People seek surgery to correct the problem. There are support groups where people talk about this problem. There are legal avenues to sue in some countries because of this problem.

That some brothers don't talk to one another about it is not evidence that nobody is talking about it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 03-10-2018 10:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 03-11-2018 2:10 PM Modulous has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6394
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 77 of 354 (829635)
03-10-2018 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by ringo
03-10-2018 11:19 AM


Ringo writes:

Think it through. Slavery was banned because it was harmful to the slaves. A was banned from owning B because it was harmful to B. What we're talking about here is banning B from doing something that is harmful to B.

I guess when you said this, you actually meant A not B....so let's forget the whole thing and get back to the point.

It was deemed by society that women should have the right to choose, to give consent. That's what I'm saying. A person should have control over his/her own body. No law should prevent a person from treating his/her body as he/she chooses.

We've already agreed this. It's non-contraversial

And if the person is under age - i.e. incapable of making an informed choice - then the choice is made by the parent or guardian.

You tried to say that A should not be able harm B. Circumcision is unecessary harm to a child. If B want a lump of his dick removed, fine, let's wait until he can give his consent eh?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 03-10-2018 11:19 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 03-11-2018 2:18 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 78 of 354 (829648)
03-11-2018 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Modulous
03-10-2018 1:04 PM


Modulous writes:

If you can show me the harm for doing it to an 8 day old child I'd be interested to see it. I'd be fascinated to see that applying pressure with lips and tongue is harmful but applying pressure with a wetwipe is not harmful....


Psychological harm.

Modulous writes:

... and slicing bits off is not harmful.


Granted, my brothers are crazy but not half as crazy as I am, so there doesn't seem to be a correlation.

Modulous writes:

I was questioning why your comment - "What I'm against is the government telling me not to harm myself." was relevant in a discussion about doing things to other people who cannot consent.


In the case of somebody who can not give consent, "myself' refers to somebody who can. Harming a child is equivalent to harming the parent.

Modulous writes:

But as has been established in this very thread, people are talking about this problem.


Only a very small minority. More people are talking about UFOs but I wouldn't call them a problem.

Modulous writes:

There are legal avenues to sue in some countries because of this problem.


As there should be.

But if it is a problem for a minority, that's no reason to ban it for the majority.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Modulous, posted 03-10-2018 1:04 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Modulous, posted 03-11-2018 6:36 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 79 of 354 (829649)
03-11-2018 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Tangle
03-10-2018 3:10 PM


Tangle writes:

ringo writes:

Slavery was banned because it was harmful to the slaves. A was banned from owning B because it was harmful to B. What we're talking about here is banning B from doing something that is harmful to B.


I guess when you said this, you actually meant A not B....

No. I meant what I said. Let's try it again: We banned A from owning slave B because it was harmful to B. You're advocating banning B from doing something that you deem harmful to B. It's the difference between harming yourself and harming something else. Thus, the comparison to slavery doesn't work.

Tangle writes:

You tried to say that A should not be able harm B.


What part of "consent" do you not understand?

Tangle writes:

... let's wait until he can give his consent eh?


Why not wait until he can give consent to education? Why not start kindergarten at age 18?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Tangle, posted 03-10-2018 3:10 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 03-11-2018 2:28 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6394
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 80 of 354 (829651)
03-11-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ringo
03-11-2018 2:18 PM


Ringo writes:

No. I meant what I said. Let's try it again: We banned A from owning slave B because it was harmful to B. You're advocating banning B from doing something that you deem harmful to B.

In this case B is a 7 day old child, so how can B do anything at all?

It's the difference between harming yourself and harming something else. Thus, the comparison to slavery doesn't work.

Nothing works if you think Baby B can slice his own dick.

What part of "consent" do you not understand?

I was wondering exactly the same of you. Baby B has not and can not give his consent.

Why not wait until he can give consent to education? Why not start kindergarten at age 18?

You're attempting an equivalence between education and penile mutilation? Really?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 03-11-2018 2:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 03-11-2018 2:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 81 of 354 (829653)
03-11-2018 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tangle
03-11-2018 2:28 PM


Tangle writes:

Baby B has not and can not give his consent.


Exactly. He requires his parents' consent for any medical procedure.

Tangle writes:

You're attempting an equivalence between education and penile mutilation?


Consent is consent. How do you think they differ in terms of consent?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 03-11-2018 2:28 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Tangle, posted 03-11-2018 2:49 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6394
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 82 of 354 (829658)
03-11-2018 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
03-11-2018 2:34 PM


Ringo writes:

Exactly. He requires his parents' consent for any medical procedure.

So, as I said, you entire A and B argument is total bollox, give it up.

Consent is consent. How do you think they differ in terms of consent?

In the first (circumcision), consent is necessary because it involves only harm and risk. In the second (education) it is unnecessary because it is only beneficial.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 03-11-2018 2:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 03-11-2018 2:53 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 83 of 354 (829659)
03-11-2018 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Tangle
03-11-2018 2:49 PM


Tangle writes:

So, as I said, you entire A and B argument is total bollox, give it up.


No. it was your attempt to compare circumcision to slavery that was bollox.

Tangle writes:

In the first (circumcision), consent is necessary because it involves only harm and risk. In the second (education) it is unnecessary because it is only beneficial.


That claim depends on circumcision being harmful. Medical practitioners and lawmakers don't agree with you.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Tangle, posted 03-11-2018 2:49 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Tangle, posted 03-11-2018 3:05 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6394
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 84 of 354 (829660)
03-11-2018 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ringo
03-11-2018 2:53 PM


Ringo writes:

That claim depends on circumcision being harmful.

You finally noticed the point of the entire discussion.

Medical practitioners and lawmakers don't agree with you.

I have provided the evidence - from medical practitioners - that it is harmful. 200+ deaths per year in the USA alone, directly attributable to circumcision.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 03-11-2018 2:53 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 03-12-2018 11:40 AM Tangle has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 85 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 85 of 354 (829665)
03-11-2018 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
03-11-2018 2:10 PM


If you can show me the harm....
Psychological harm.

I'm not stopping you, please show me.

Granted, my brothers are crazy but not half as crazy as I am, so there doesn't seem to be a correlation.

I remain persuaded that your family life is not going to provide us with any insights.

In the case of somebody who can not give consent, "myself' refers to somebody who can. Harming a child is equivalent to harming the parent.

Huh?

Only a very small minority.

About 10% of circumcised men. It's not that small. It also disproves the concept that 'nobody' is talking about it.

But if it is a problem for a minority, that's no reason to ban it for the majority.

The reason is that it's unnecessary, risky, damaging and there's an absence of consent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 03-11-2018 2:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 03-12-2018 11:42 AM Modulous has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 86 of 354 (829698)
03-12-2018 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Tangle
03-11-2018 3:05 PM


Tangle writes:

I have provided the evidence - from medical practitioners - that it is harmful. 200+ deaths per year in the USA alone, directly attributable to circumcision.


There are risks to any form of elective surgery. Medical practitioners and lawmakers do not agree with you that circumcision should be banned.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Tangle, posted 03-11-2018 3:05 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 03-12-2018 1:54 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 87 of 354 (829699)
03-12-2018 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Modulous
03-11-2018 6:36 PM


Modulous writes:

The reason is that it's unnecessary, risky, damaging and there's an absence of consent.


1. The necessity is a matter of opinion.
2. Everything is risky.
3. Damage is a matter of opinion.
4. Children can not consent.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Modulous, posted 03-11-2018 6:36 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Modulous, posted 03-12-2018 2:38 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6394
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 88 of 354 (829715)
03-12-2018 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by ringo
03-12-2018 11:40 AM


ringo writes:

There are risks to any form of elective surgery.

Yes I know, I've pointed that out several times now. It's an unnecessary risk that adults are exposing 7 day old babies to for superstitious reasons.

Medical practitioners and lawmakers do not agree with you that circumcision should be banned.

Many medical and lawmakers do agree with me. Now what?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 03-12-2018 11:40 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 03-13-2018 11:40 AM Tangle has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 85 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 89 of 354 (829718)
03-12-2018 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
03-12-2018 11:42 AM


1. The necessity is a matter of opinion.

Non-therapeutic circumcision is, by definition, not medically necessary. Even for those that believe the prophylactic argument, they wouldn't argue it was necessary.

2. Everything is risky.

A sentiment which has justified precisely nothing, ever.

3. Damage is a matter of opinion.

Not really - one has to cause damage in order to complete a circumcision. If you fail to damage the skin, it won't come off.

4. Children can not consent.

Exactly my point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 03-12-2018 11:42 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 03-13-2018 11:48 AM Modulous has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 90 of 354 (829756)
03-13-2018 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Tangle
03-12-2018 1:54 PM


Tangle writes:

It's an unnecessary risk that adults are exposing 7 day old babies to for superstitious reasons.


It isn't up to you do decide what's unnecessary.

And there are doctors doing it for medical reasons, not religious.

Tangle writes:

Many medical and lawmakers do agree with me. Now what?


It isn't banned. You lose.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 03-12-2018 1:54 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 03-13-2018 1:05 PM ringo has responded

  
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