Christianity and the End Times

quote:

---

Sounds plausible. What percentage of the global population would we imagine the church roughly to comprise?

---

I don't know Phat.

quote:

---

What are the basic qualifications for this group? Belief or works or both?

---

If you look at the seven epistles you see that within each church there was a call for some to overcome. They were not all called to overcome the same problems. But they were all called to prevail over surrounding degradation of some type.So in each age or local church believers may face varied challenges. Whatever the specific challenges of that age Christ is sufficient to make them more than conquerors. The book by Watchman Nee called The Normal Christian Life sounds benign and possibly even dull. But the point of that book is that it should be NORMAL for the Christian to be prevailing in grace, overcoming in empowering in the Spirit of Christ, and rise above mediocrity and lukewarmness and "average" to more than conquer, as the NT says.The subject is really The [Overcoming] Christian Life -- which SHOULD be attainable because of what Christ is in the believers.To be an overcomer (or if you will - "more than conquer",) is only to rise to the standard of what God expects via the overcoming grace He has provided.

quote:

---

Or was the church chosen by God?

---

The church is chosen before the foundation of the world, iee. before the creation of the universe. If the believers stand upon these great promises in faith, all the more we can overcome. Instead of arguing about foreknowledge and predestination we should USE predestination to increase our faith and enjoyment of Christ.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Phat,

quote:

---

I can understand how a smaller group within the church was (were) overcomers.

---

The entire nation of Israel was chosen to be a nation of priests. But God ended up having to reserve the sons of Levi to be the priests. They were old testament overcomers.The twelve spies of Israel sent into Canaan should have had the faith to bring back a good report. The ten were weakened in faith and only TWO - Joshua and Caleb believed the promise of God was attainable. They two were Old Testament overcomers.The entire nation of Israel was chosen to defeat the Midianites. But God ended up having to reserve a small army of 300 under Gideon to be the victors. They were old testament overcomers.Did all the Israelites return from the Babylonian captivity? Only a remnant overcame to fulfill God's plan of recovery.In the New Testament THOUSANDS heard Jesus and many received blessing from Him. Only one hundred and twenty were in the room awaiting the Holy Spirit. Where were all the rest?God loved them. God blessed them. But we can consider the one hundred and twenty in the upper room as having been those who overcame the typical and average apathy.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : Philistines and error. I meant Midianites (Judges 7,8)

Phat,The principle of a remnant standing in the gap is seen many times in the Bible.
In the end times it is the same.It is not important to self identify as an overcomer. This is arrogance. It is however, great to say to God you desire to cooperate with Him TO overcome.Paul did not know until the end that he had finished his course and run the race set before him. Christians should have the same attitude.In the seven letters to the seven churches there is always a concluding promise of special blessing to those who overcome. Twice there the promise is in terms of NOT doing something disciplinary. IE. The Reward is you will NOT ... suffer such and such.Either postively or negatively, these for whom the question of eternal life and eternal redemption is already settled in the affirmative, are called to OVERCOME some kind of obstacle.Think of the Man-child of Revelation 12 in this way.I am verbose and wrote probably many things which you did not ask about. I hope your question was answered. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

quote:

---

Did God foreknow these results?

​

Or did the people choose to become overcomers?

---

The free will vs foreknowledge and predestination paradox I cannot solve totally. Ask me something simpler.My answer would probably be both as God is so transcendent.Consider John 3:16.We could ask:Did God foreknow these results?
Or did the people choose to become believers?I say both.Then consider Revelation 2:26-28.Again we could ask:Did God foreknow these results?
Or did the people choose to become overcomers?The answer is paradoxically both.
It should be so in both cases.But totally solving this mysterious paradox? That's too hard for me.I would not advise anyone to use that philosophical dilemma to put off responding to the Gospel of Christ in belief in the case of John 3:16And I would not advise any Christian to be distracted by that philosophical dilemma so as to ignore the call to overcome once in the Christian church.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

quote:

---

Thinking of the church as a whole, yes, but these verses address single overcomers and it doesn't address them AS a collective, you have to add that part. And the Mainchild as Jesus Christ is simply singular, there is nothing to cause us to think of Him as a collective, whereas overcomers CAN be thought of as a collective although there is nothing in these passages to require it of us.

---

This is not a problem to me because the overcoming saints stand for and represent for the whole what it is God intends to achieve.Consider the promise to those who overcome in Revelation 3:12 in the church in Philadelphia. Now this reward is to be so totally identified with God final corporate enterprise that they bear her name. God writes upon then the name of the collective in eternity New Jerusalem .They become pillars in the dwelling place of God, His living temple. Complete ownership is assigned to them. And they will go out of this corporate entity no more.They foretaste that conclusion which finally is the common portion of all the saints. Their having overcome lead them ahead. They arrive at collective entity that God desires from eternity past. But they do so as a kind of beach head victory on behalf of all the other believers who are to follow.So also is the man-child.The seven rewards pertaining to those who overcome in Revelation 2 and 3 are about reward dispensed in the thousand year millennial kingdom. This age is between the church age and the age of the new heaven and new earth in eternity.Church age of grace -----> Millennial age of Kingdom -----> Eternal age of the new heaven and new earth.God in His wisdom foreknew that of all the saved persons SOME would regard His grace more cheaply and SOME would not. He knew SOME would nullify the full effectiveness of His grace in them and others would spend all His grace to cooperate with their transformation and sanctification.Therefore God set up the millennial kingdom as a REWARD for those who are wise to cooperate in a timely manner.Because so many Christians are in a habit of thinking eternity will commence upon the second coming of Christ, this incentive of the thousand year reward seems odd to them.Paul only promises that ALL will arrive at the full stature of the full knowledge of the Son of God eventually. If some overcome to arrive before the majority, they simply stand for the final product in an early way.They will be joined by the rest, future to their being rewarded for overcoming in their age.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

quote:

---

Overcomers can certainly be thought of as a collective, though again there is nothing in the passages themselves to require it of us, but the Manchild, He's Jesus Christ, there is nothing at all that suggests a collective in that image there or anywhere else that I know of.

---

What about when the Apostle Paul speaks to the Galatian Christians that as many as heed to a certain principle, they stand as the Israel of God? You know the problems in the Galatian churches in the book of Galatians.
Paul seeks to cause them to overcome. And as many as will overcome and walk by a certain rule of transformation into a new creation- they stand for the collective of the Israel of God.In other words - "THIS, THIS new creation is what God is after. This is up to the standard of normality. Overcome to rise to this - the collective of the Israel of God in truth."Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I am not sure, but I think some Bible students may be alarmed to hear of a corporate overcoming entity within the whole mystical Body of Christ. Perhaps they feel this un-churches other believers.I think the fear is unfounded. Think of this. John identified himself as "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (John 20:2) . Now does this mean that Jesus did not love the other disciples? Of course not.I am a disciple of Jesus. And I sense strongly that Jesus loves me too. Nevetheless John wants us to know only this about his identity - He was the disciple whom Jesus loved. To be in the love of Jesus was so wonderful.He could not mean that Jesus ONLY loved John.Transfer the logic to a Man-child - a collective unit to win a strategic victory.
What THEY REALIZED was simple the full power of what God has in His heart for ALL the mystical body of Christ.Revelation brings this out.Now if anyone simply CANNOT regard the man-child as a collective in Revelation 12, I am happy that they say "No, No, it could only be Jesus." For they are not wrong in a strong sense. If no resurrected Jesus - NO overcoming.I only hope the loudest critics really have faith that Jesus did rise from the dead. Any argument from agnosticism that the man-child is Jesus isn't worth too much to me. IF Jesus did not rise our entire Christian faith is in vain (1 Cor. 15:17-19) I will always teach that the Firstfruits are raptured overcomers who will be living at the pre-great tribulation time and the Man-child is raptured overcomers who need resurrection and rapture at the pre-great tribulation time.A chapter is dedicated to the living ones and a chapter is dedication to the deceased ones - Rev. 14 and 12 respectively.For this post only one final thing I wish to add:Believing in a pre-great tribulation rapture is no guarantee that one will be raptured pre-great tribulation.Not believing in a pre-great tribulation rapture is no guarantee that one will NOT be raptured pre-great tribulation.Watching and walking in the Holy Spirit vigilantly will determine participation in a pre-great tribulation rapture.Those living at the time will go up for they are found thus walking.
Those of the past who died thus walking will be resurrected to go up.In both cases this will be a remnant of overcoming ones. And if not going up at the same moment, their respective raptures will be close in time. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Now this thread was titled Christianity and the End Times .When a minority of saints living are suddenly not found, as Enoch was taken, and when the majority of Christians realize that they have been left, that will go a long way to bring about the End of Christianity during the End Times. Though I do not intend to high jack the subject matter.This however, depends on how one views the word "Christianity". To some this is an only sweet and positive term. To others "Christianity" means any and all things slapped with the label associating it with Christ.The early secretive rapture will not only be a cause of Satan to be driven down to earth by the obedient angelic servants of the saints. It will also go considerably to AWAKEN millions of Christian brothers and sisters that what they ASSUMED of what God wants apparently was not sufficient to merit their rapture.To a significant degree this will aid to bring about the end of Christiandom as a huge mixture of things of God with things not of God. It will not be the end of Christians. And it will not be the end of the church universal.The OTHER catalyst that will bring about the destruction of Christiandom will be the activity of the Antichrist. We may get to these matters latter. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

quote:

---

Jaywill, I'm not denying that there are many ways Christians are spoken of as a collective or a coporate body, all I'm saying is that I don't see that in the image of the Manchild being caught up to heaven in Revelation 12, and so far your references to our being a collective in other contexts haven't changed that.

---

So be it.
But your difficulty is not one for me.In the classic story of the little army of 300 soldiers with Gideon in Judges 7 a loaf of barley bread in a dream stood for Gideon and his little army of overcomers. This is the Bible's quintessential account of God gaining a great victory with a remnant of a relatively small number of people under their divinely ordained leader. And I believe that symbol of a round barley loaf pointed to Gideon their leader and the small overcoming collective under his command.So a Man-child could point to the resurrected Christ and the faithful overcomers closely following Him as a remnant. Christ's life has actually been dispensed into them. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

quote:

---

I just don't see anything in the Manchild other than the single Person of Christ. All the other things are saying I have no problem with, I just don't see any connection between them and the Manchild.

---

Do you then have any interpretive thoughts about the significance of a thousand two hundred and sixty days immediately following either the BIRTH of Jesus or the ASCENSION of Jesus ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

quote:

---

I don't read it as necessarily immediately following. All those references to that period of time seem to point to the Tribulation period, but perhaps you could say how you see it and we can move on to that topic.

---

I agree with you that the thousand two hundred and sixty days refer to the great tribulation. Since Jesus Christ was born, resurrected and ascended nearly two thousands years ago, the catching up to God and God's throne cannot refer to those events. Another birth or ascension of Jesus is out of the question.
The birth or ascension of another person is also unlikely.So a pre-great tribulation rapture of some CORPORATE entity logically fits the scenario very well.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The principle of a remnant minority as a Man-child (Rev 12) or a group of Firstfruits (Rev 14) is foreshadowed in the New Jerusalem in partial during the millennium as a reward to a minority of overcomers. The reward is conditioned on OVERCOMING.To the overcomers in the church in Philadelphia complete identification as New Jerusalem is a reward during the millennial kingdom. But this is a minority of all the total saved.Christ organically constitutes them as intergral pillars in His living dwelling place - His temple.
Christ organically writes on them His name.
Christ organically writes on them the name of His eternal city.
Christ organically writes on them His new name.So God uses the thousand year millennium as also a time to perfect the defeated saints. These mature too but late. The former stand in place of the final consummation of His eternal purpose - during the millennium.Brother Witness Lee explains in the book The Overcomers how these ones enjoy a foretaste of a fuller reality to involve ALL the believers after the one thousand years of Christ's millennial reign. (My spacing below) Copied from - The Overcomers by Witness Lee, Living Stream Ministry, Titles A-Z | LSM Online Publications [My spacing]Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

quote:

---

After some rest I will try to show from the structure of the book of Revelation, that it should be divided into TWO major sections.
The actual end of the end times arrives in chapter 11.
What follows chapter 11 starting with chapter 12 is something of a revisiting of the events previously mentioned with a particular FOCUS on the last three and one half years of the age.

​

This is the difference between the scroll in chapter 4 and 5 and the little scroll in chapter 10.

​

What we read then in chapters 12 and 13 is something of a rehash of what we have already read about in chapter 9. I speak of Satan being limited from roaming in the spheres of the upper heavens and being driven down to the earth in the last few years of the age before Christ's setting foot on the earth again.

​

Please prepared by reading Revelation 9 through 13 or at least chapter 9 and chapters 10 and 11.

---

One should wonder why the annocement of the arrival of the kingdom of God seems to come TWICE - Revelation 11:15-18 and Revelation 12:10,11.This was a big problem to me the first few times I studied this book. As I promised I will try to explain this peculiarity. But first I'll place the two announcements together for examination.Others can then suggest their solution to the problem. 1.) At the Seventh Trumpet - Revelation 11:15-18How FINAL this all sounds. The prophecy seems to reach its grand conclusion right here. The kingdom of God has come to the earth forever.But in the next chapter there seems to be a retrace as if the movie was reset to an earlier time. And the announcement of the kingdom comes with much STILL happening on earth to secure it.Why this reset? For years I thought this was a big puzzling anticlimax in the next chapter 12. 2.) At the Rapture of the Man-child - Revelation 12:10-12 What do some of you think of this duel announcement of the final coming of the kingdom of God ? Why the seeming anti-climax starting in chapter 12 ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

quote:

---

jaywill, I don't want to argue too much about the different theologies, and I haven't studied these things enough to have a really clear opinion about it anyway, BUT when Witness Lee pictures some of the Church having to suffer to earn their place in the Kingdom it sounds a lot like the Catholic idea of Purgatory to me, which is an unbiblical denial of the perfect grace for our salvation given by the death of Christ.

---

Well, dispensational discipline during the millennial kingdom did not originate with Witness Lee. I also check everything with the word of God. And I have been persuaded that this light has come to the church by the Holy Spirit.Now from what I understand Catholic Purgatory is different from discipline during the millennium. Catholic Purgatory is a purification process upon the deceased DURING the church age, BEFORE the second coming of Christ. And of course there was the matter of selling indulgences to shorten the time departed SOULS spent in Purgatory.What Lee and some other Post Brethren teachers teach is more biblical. AFTER the second coming of Christ, ALL the saved appear before the judgment seat of Christ for a determination of either their reward or discipline during the thousand year millennial kingdom.This has nothing to do with eternal redemption which has been settled for all the saved in the affirmative already. They will never perish forever.But at the commencement of the thousand year kingdom some saints will be rewarded and some saints will suffer loss, though they are still saved. A solid basis for this is found in First Corinthians 3:10-17 . I'm highlighting the most relevant verses below: 1.) All who undergo this examination are already eternally saved. And only the eternally saved are qualified to appear at this judgment. 2.) The quality of life is equated to the quality of building material. Ie. that which can withstand fire verses that which will be consumed by fire. 3.) Building with high quality materials will merit a REWARD in the coming millennial kingdom. 4.) Building with inferior quality materials will cause the saints to SUFFER LOSS. No REWARD is given but they are still saved yet so as through fire.The scope of the words suffer loss is not specific. It is general. It should include any number of appropriate disciplines the wise Father deems necessary to the saved saint. Such suffering of loss is not pertaining to eternity. It is pertaining to the temporary period of the millennial kingdom.It may pertain to some portion of it OR the entire period. But I don't know that much. This discipline is administered after the resurrection and rapture and decided at the beginning of the millennial kingdom.Can you perceive the difference between this and Catholic Purgatory ?

quote:

---

Certainly there are stages and degrees of perfection of sanctification, but you can't make our standing before the Lord dependent on those things or you are denying Justification by Faith Alone in Christ's once-for-all sacrifice for sin.

---

Look again at the verse just supplied to you. The one suffering loss is STILL eternally Justified by Faith and Redeemed.
Reward is different from Gift.One justified by faith may SUFFER LOSS after the second coming of Jesus Christ. First Corinthians 3:15 does no damage to the truth of Justification by Faith. Including the thief on the cross ... WE ALL must be manifest before the judgment seat of Christ. God has the wisdom to sort out what to do with each one of us saved by grace as to our position in the millennial kingdom.Without exception ALL the eternally saved have decision made concerning their position in the millennial kingdom at the bema seat of Christ which is the judgment seat also of God. The bema seat here is like a raised platform used to evaluate someone's life.Remember also that it is possible to receive mercy at this judgment. For the merciful will themselves receive mercy. Do not think for an instance that those justified by faith unto eternal redemption will not be judged according to how they lived their lives in the grace of Christ.Eternal redemption is secure. Reward during the next age of the millennium is not. The Gift is assured. The Reward is optional. And those partaking of the Gift may be saved yet so as through fire, suffering loss.How we judge others during the church age will have a big effect on how we ourselves will be judged by Christ.

quote:

---

Also, "He who calls on the Name of the LORD shall be saved" shows that same principle: we are saved by HIM on the basis of a sincere simple profession of faith in Him.

---

Yes, But does it say he who calls on the name of the Lord is assured to be REWARDED ?Some who called on the name of the Lord will suffer loss yet BE SAVED, yet so as through fire. Witness Lee's invented concept ? No, the concept of First Corinthians 3:15.

quote:

---

On this basis I think I'm arguing that you are wrong about only some special class of Overcomers being raptured.

---

I have repeated a number of times a concept which is difficult for some Christians to grasp. Those who OVERCOME in the Bible are not an elite or a special class ABOVE the standard. They are those who arrive AT the expected standard.Those who overcome may say "We have ONLY done what was our duty to have done."
(See Luke 17:10) I must stop here. But the overcomers only rise to the normal standard of having done what they OUGHT to have done. They are not an elite or super spiritual special class. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : clarification - for a determination of either

I'm studying your reply. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.