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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Percy
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Posts: 17749
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 1 of 441 (836060)
07-09-2018 6:26 AM


A recent article in Salon magazine describes When evangelicals were pro-choice and the NRA was pro-gun control: A history of hypocrisy. About evangelicals and the abortion issue it says:

quote:
For evangelicals (rather than Roman Catholics), the entire premise of the moral crusade against Roe is utterly bogus. Here’s how Jonathan Dudley, author of "Broken Words: The Abuse of Science and Faith in American Politics," explained it on CNN’s Belief blog in 2012:

quote:
In 1968, Christianity Today published a special issue on contraception and abortion, encapsulating the consensus among evangelical thinkers at the time. In the leading article, professor Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary, explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth:

“God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: 'If a man kills any human life he will be put to death' (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense. … Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.”

The magazine Christian Life agreed, insisting, “The Bible definitely pinpoints a difference in the value of a fetus and an adult.” And the Southern Baptist Convention passed a 1971 resolution affirming abortion should be legal not only to protect the life of the mother, but to protect her emotional health as well.



So evangelicals were once pro-choice. The change in position is reported here by Max Blumenthal:

quote:
"What changed their mind was Jimmy Carter's intervention against the Christian schools, trying to deny them tax-exempt status on the basis of so-called de facto segregation."
...
As evangelical leaders formed common cause with Catholics on topics like feminism and homosexuality, they began re-interpreting the Bible as teaching the Roman Catholic position on abortion.

Falwell’s first major treatment of the issue, in a 1980 book chapter called, significantly, “The Right to Life,” declared, “The Bible clearly states that life begins at conception. … (Abortion) is murder according to the Word of God.”

With the megawatt power of his TV presence and mailing list, Falwell and his allies disseminated these interpretations to evangelicals across America.


In other words, evangelicals flipped their beliefs in the 1980's, adopting the Catholic view on abortion and becoming anti-abortion.

Faith and Belief, please.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Shorten title to what was originally intended - the beginning of the message body somehow became appended.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 07-09-2018 7:15 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
AdminPhat
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Posts: 1878
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 441 (836062)
07-09-2018 6:35 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortionA recent article in Salon magazine thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Phat
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Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 441 (836063)
07-09-2018 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
07-09-2018 6:26 AM


Its All About Power
Interesting article!
Paul Rosenberg writes:

Conservative hypocrisy on abortion and guns is part of a much larger far-right power grab, built on dangerous lies...

Of course we knew that the Far Right formed by Falwell and the Moral Majority was a new form of conservatism that seeks to put its "people" in power...but it is interesting to see the evolution of this Neo-Conservatism and how it has shaped American politics.

It sure turned a lot of people off to organized religion, however.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

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jar
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Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 4 of 441 (836511)
07-18-2018 11:41 AM


It's amazing to me that this fact is not common knowledge. In Message 189 back in 2011 I mentioned that it was Southern Baptists that were at the forefront of decriminalizing abortion.

Edited by jar, : add link to a 2011 post


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

  
jar
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Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 5 of 441 (836546)
07-19-2018 7:45 AM


Just a few more facts.
The Roe v. Wade decision came down in 1973.

Before that time abortions happened but were not recorded or reported so there is no way to tell if the numbers were any more or less than post Roe v. Wade.

Abortions were performed by anyone willing to perform an abortion; quite often people with absolutely no medical training.

Abortions were performed in any place where it could be kept relatively secret but usually not in a doctor's office or a hospital.

There was no follow up care or counseling.

Abortions were a cash only transaction and totally off the books.

Is that really where we want to see US society go?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Faith
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Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 6 of 441 (836561)
07-19-2018 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
07-19-2018 7:45 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Yes I had one of those illegal abortions. I'm pretty sure they occurred at nowhere near the rate they've been occurring since Roe v. Wade.

No, I'd rather not see us revert to the earlier state of things but legally murdering something like, what, fifty mllion babies? Is not where we want to be either.

Seems to me the solution would have to involve a lot of clear teaching about what abortion really is, make the women aware that it really is a baby they are killing, and provide services to help them through the pregnancy and delivery of the child, counseling on adoption options and help to keep it if they choose. These services are available now through many churches across the US, but Planned Parenthood pushes killing the baby and works against giving the pregnant girl or woman information that might lead her to reject that solution.


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Replies to this message:
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ringo
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Posts: 15414
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 7 of 441 (836565)
07-19-2018 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
07-19-2018 11:48 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:

I'm pretty sure they occurred at nowhere near the rate they've been occurring since Roe v. Wade.


I compare prohibition of abortion with prohibition of alcohol and prohibition of drugs.

The evidence seems to be that prohibition of alcohol in the 1920s did not decrease consumption. It did spawn organized crime. Similarly, prohibition of drugs in our time doesn't seem to decrease consumption. It continues to support organized crime and in addition it has spawned an "enforcement" industry that is very expensive for the taxpayer.

Faith writes:

Seems to me the solution would have to involve a lot of clear teaching about what abortion really is....


I'm sure somebody would be willing to teach you. Starting with the fact that abortion is not murder, not in the Bible and probably not even in your own mind, if you're honest. Do you want to execute young women for having abortions?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 11:48 AM Faith has responded

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Faith
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Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 8 of 441 (836569)
07-19-2018 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
07-19-2018 12:03 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Read what I wrote, nothing to do with punishing anyone.

I'm sure you've seen those ultrasound images of babies at twelve weeks? All human parts are there, head, torso, arms, legs, fingers and toes. They sometimes even suck their thumbs on those images. Their hearts beat steadily. So, let's see, if we kill it before twelve weeks then we can be sure it wasn't a human being?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 07-19-2018 12:54 PM Faith has responded
 Message 10 by Taq, posted 07-19-2018 1:14 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15414
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 9 of 441 (836576)
07-19-2018 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
07-19-2018 12:27 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:

Read what I wrote, nothing to do with punishing anyone.


Don't be silly. Murder involves punishment. You can't splatter the word "murder" around without considering punishment.

Faith writes:

I'm sure you've seen those ultrasound images of babies at twelve weeks? All human parts are there, head, torso, arms, legs, fingers and toes. They sometimes even suck their thumbs on those images. Their hearts beat steadily. So, let's see, if we kill it before twelve weeks then we can be sure it wasn't a human being?


I've told you this before: I am not in favour of abortion.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 12:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 5:22 PM ringo has responded

  
Taq
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Posts: 7575
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 10 of 441 (836581)
07-19-2018 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
07-19-2018 12:27 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:

All human parts are there, head, torso, arms, legs, fingers and toes. They sometimes even suck their thumbs on those images. Their hearts beat steadily. So, let's see, if we kill it before twelve weeks then we can be sure it wasn't a human being?

Do heads, torsos, arms, legs, fingers and toes make us human? If I get a toe chopped off am I less of a human?

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 12:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 5:25 PM Taq has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 11 of 441 (836587)
07-19-2018 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
07-19-2018 12:54 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
I don't care about the legal definition of murder, I use it because it is the only word that clearly means killing a human being. Most women don't think that's what they are doing when they have an abortion, I didn't, so punishment is not relevant. Yet I had a dream about the child I would have had right after the abortion which showed I knew it unconsciously. And many women become deeply depressed after an abortion, which is another clue. They are deceived by this idea that it is not a living being, just a "piece of tissue" or whatever.

Since you aren't in favor of abortion please don't argue as if you were.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 07-19-2018 5:42 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 12 of 441 (836588)
07-19-2018 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Taq
07-19-2018 1:14 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Oh come on Taq. The ultrasound shows a living breathing baby, all its parts intact even down to the toes on its feet, its heart beating, even sometimes sucking its thumb, at only twelve weeks in the womb and an inch or two in length. It isn't a shapeless blob, it doesn't look like a fish, it looks like a human baby.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
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Posts: 15414
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 13 of 441 (836592)
07-19-2018 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
07-19-2018 5:22 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Fath writes:

Most women don't think that's what they are doing when they have an abortion, I didn't, so punishment is not relevant.


If you don't think it's murder, don't call it murder. If you call it murder, you have to consider punishment.

Faith writes:

Since you aren't in favor of abortion please don't argue as if you were.


I argue as if I was in favour of minding my own damn business. If you really care about how women feel, you won't make them feel worse about their decision.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 5:22 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 5:50 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 14 of 441 (836593)
07-19-2018 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
07-19-2018 5:42 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
If I really care about how women feel I will tell them it is a real baby so they won't kill it and have that on their conscience. And as I already said many women's depression says they know it anyway and suffer for it despite convincing themselves otherwise.

But I am also concerned about God's punishing a nation for such wholesale legal slaughter of the unborn, along with a growing list of other violations of His law.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 07-19-2018 5:42 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 07-19-2018 5:58 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15414
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 15 of 441 (836595)
07-19-2018 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
07-19-2018 5:50 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:

If I really care about how women feel I will tell them it is a real baby so they won't kill it and have that on their conscience. And as I already said many women's depression says they know it anyway despite convincing themselves otherwise.


That's an simplistic attempt to generalize how all women feel. In reality, for every woman who regrets having an abortion you'll find one who is glad she did.

Faith writes:

But I am also concerned about God's punishing a nation for such wholesale legal slaughter of the unborn, along with a growing list of other violations of His law.


There is nothing in the Bible against abortion. The Levitical law clearly treats an unborn fetus as the father's property, not a human being.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 5:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 07-19-2018 6:26 PM ringo has responded

  
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