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Author Topic:   Random or just incomplete information?
Dr Jack
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From: Leicester, England
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 Message 16 of 44 (738632) 10-13-2014 11:48 AM Reply to: Message 5 by lfen07-11-2004 8:11 PM

 I also was hoping to hear from folks who might have some insights into ways randomness may interupt casuality and thus interupt conditioning and perhaps give some insight into the notion of free will.

Randomness does not rescue free will - if indeed it needs rescuing - there's nothing more "free" about being determined by a dice roll than a rigid law.

 This message is a reply to: Message 5 by lfen, posted 07-11-2004 8:11 PM lfen has not yet responded

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 (1)
 Message 17 of 44 (738634) 10-13-2014 12:20 PM Reply to: Message 1 by lfen07-11-2004 4:26 PM

I agree with Mr Jack. Without wanting to start the Great Free Will Debate all over again, the way I see it "free will" means that my actions are determined --- by the state of my brain, i.e. by me. Adding a random factor in there doesn't make my will more free, but, if anything, less so.
 This message is a reply to: Message 1 by lfen, posted 07-11-2004 4:26 PM lfen has not yet responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member

 Message 18 of 44 (738648) 10-13-2014 2:29 PM Reply to: Message 15 by Dr Adequate10-13-2014 11:42 AM

Re: Quantum Randomness?
 If we could know the exact position of the balls, and the exact state of the machine, we would be able to predict the exact trajectory of the balls, but we can't so we can't.

What you are describing is simply determinism.

The Bohm interpretation allows determination while still complying with the Bell inequalities. As best as I understand the explanation, you would need to know the state of the entire universe in order to completely determine a quantum system. It seems to me that any causation that could be extracted from this formulation would be completely unconventional. It would still be impossible to learn when an atom was going to decay by probing deeply into the 'innards' of the nucleus.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

 This message is a reply to: Message 15 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2014 11:42 AM Dr Adequate has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 19 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2014 3:59 PM NoNukes has responded

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 Message 19 of 44 (738655) 10-13-2014 3:59 PM Reply to: Message 18 by NoNukes10-13-2014 2:29 PM

Re: Quantum Randomness?
Is that different from what I said?
 This message is a reply to: Message 18 by NoNukes, posted 10-13-2014 2:29 PM NoNukes has responded

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NoNukes
Inactive Member

 Message 20 of 44 (738665) 10-13-2014 10:06 PM Reply to: Message 19 by Dr Adequate10-13-2014 3:59 PM

Re: Quantum Randomness?
 Is that different from what I said?

Did you mean for the 'machine' in your pin ball example to refer to the configuration of the entire universe? If not, then what we said was not the same. Your example says only that the pin ball machine is deterministic.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

 This message is a reply to: Message 19 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2014 3:59 PM Dr Adequate has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2014 10:22 PM NoNukes has responded

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 Message 21 of 44 (738667) 10-13-2014 10:22 PM Reply to: Message 20 by NoNukes10-13-2014 10:06 PM

Re: Quantum Randomness?
 Did you mean for the 'machine' in your pin ball example to refer to the configuration of the entire universe?

Yes. And the wiring makes its behavior non-local.

 This message is a reply to: Message 20 by NoNukes, posted 10-13-2014 10:06 PM NoNukes has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 22 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-14-2014 7:35 AM Dr Adequate has responded Message 24 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2014 12:03 PM Dr Adequate has responded

ProtoTypical
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 Message 22 of 44 (738675) 10-14-2014 7:35 AM Reply to: Message 21 by Dr Adequate10-13-2014 10:22 PM

Re: Quantum Randomness?
 Yes. And the wiring makes its behavior non-local.

Is the non-local behaviour explained by some type of sub manifold that is folded up within the configuration space?

 This message is a reply to: Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2014 10:22 PM Dr Adequate has responded

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 Message 23 of 44 (738685) 10-14-2014 11:46 AM Reply to: Message 22 by ProtoTypical10-14-2014 7:35 AM

Re: Quantum Randomness?
 Is the non-local behaviour explained by some type of sub manifold that is folded up within the configuration space?

Are we still talking about pinball machines?

 This message is a reply to: Message 22 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-14-2014 7:35 AM ProtoTypical has not yet responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member

 Message 24 of 44 (738689) 10-14-2014 12:03 PM Reply to: Message 21 by Dr Adequate10-13-2014 10:22 PM

Re: Quantum Randomness?
 Yes. And the wiring makes its behavior non-local.

Perhaps then my comment can be read as pointing out that you did not say anything about the details you now mention, nor could your post be easily interpreted as implying them.

Your example simply mentioned knowing the state of the 'machine' and the balls. What distinguishes that statement from a description of classical mechanics?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

 This message is a reply to: Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2014 10:22 PM Dr Adequate has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 25 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2014 12:20 PM NoNukes has responded

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 Message 25 of 44 (738692) 10-14-2014 12:20 PM Reply to: Message 24 by NoNukes10-14-2014 12:03 PM

Re: Quantum Randomness?
 Your example simply mentioned knowing the state of the 'machine' and the balls. What distinguishes that statement from a description of classical mechanics?

I guess classical mechanics would be more akin to the balls bouncing about on a flat featureless plane. But perhaps I am overextending the metaphor.

 This message is a reply to: Message 24 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2014 12:03 PM NoNukes has responded

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NoNukes
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 Message 26 of 44 (738714) 10-14-2014 3:45 PM Reply to: Message 25 by Dr Adequate10-14-2014 12:20 PM

Re: Quantum Randomness?
 I guess classical mechanics would be more akin to the balls bouncing about on a flat featureless plane. But perhaps I am overextending the metaphor.

Maybe not. I see where you are going with it. I imagine a machine where the position and action of the bumpers represents non-locality as opposed to the standard machine where the bumpers are where they are and do pretty much standard stuff when a ball hits them. On the other hand you imagine just having bumpers at all as providing distinction from classical behavior. Not sure there's anything wrong with your approach.

I admit to not understanding the Bohm interpretation well enough to comment any further and the reading I've done since you posted on the topic hasn't seemed to provide me with much insight. All of the rules we know about forces and fields are local, which causes me to have issues accepting this formulation, but critiquing it on any substantial basis isn't something I can do.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

 This message is a reply to: Message 25 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2014 12:20 PM Dr Adequate has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 27 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2014 4:04 PM NoNukes has responded Message 28 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-15-2014 6:17 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

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 Message 27 of 44 (738716) 10-14-2014 4:04 PM Reply to: Message 26 by NoNukes10-14-2014 3:45 PM

Re: Quantum Randomness?
 Maybe not. I see where you are going with it. I imagine a machine where the position and action of the bumpers represents non-locality as opposed to the standard machine where the bumpers are where they are and do pretty much standard stuff when a ball hits them. On the other hand you imagine just having bumpers at all as providing distinction from classical behavior.

Well, there's also the fact that the machine's invisible ...

 I admit to not understanding the Bohm interpretation well enough to comment any further and the reading I've done since you posted on the topic hasn't seemed to provide me with much insight. All of the rules we know about forces and fields are local, which causes me to have issues accepting this formulation ...

Well, yes, but ... what's Bohm's doing, it seems to me, is shifting the weirdness of quantum theory about. Compared to the Copenhagen Interpretation, his take on things seems downright mundane. Of course, that's not a reason to believe it, but on the other hand one can't write it off just because non-local fields are whacky when the alternative sounds like a physicist took too much acid.

 This message is a reply to: Message 26 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2014 3:45 PM NoNukes has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 10-19-2014 6:37 PM Dr Adequate has responded

ProtoTypical
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 Message 28 of 44 (738748) 10-15-2014 6:17 AM Reply to: Message 26 by NoNukes10-14-2014 3:45 PM

Re: Quantum Randomness?
 All of the rules we know about forces and fields are local, which causes me to have issues accepting this formulation,

Aren't entangled particles evidence of non-local forces?

 This message is a reply to: Message 26 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2014 3:45 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

1.61803
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From: Lone Star State USA
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 Message 29 of 44 (738757) 10-15-2014 10:23 AM

@\$%8 happens
I find it difficult to wrap my head around quantum entanglement, and super luminosity. Being a layperson and not having the math backround I can only rely on analogies and comparisons.

From the last thread we discussed about determinism and randomness, I was under the impression the universe is both.

At the most fundamental level things do just happen without causes.

As Chaz said in Blades of Glory "It bottles the mind."

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

 Replies to this message: Message 30 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-16-2014 7:21 AM 1.61803 has responded

ProtoTypical
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 Message 30 of 44 (738812) 10-16-2014 7:21 AM Reply to: Message 29 by 1.6180310-15-2014 10:23 AM

Re: @\$%8 happens
 At the most fundamental level things do just happen without causes.

God wills it!

I guess that it bothers me because for everything else in the universe -

quote:
When viewed in an inertial reference frame, an object either remains at rest or continues to move at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by an external force.

I would say that things acting without cause would be a good example of supernatural behaviour.

 This message is a reply to: Message 29 by 1.61803, posted 10-15-2014 10:23 AM 1.61803 has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 31 by 1.61803, posted 10-16-2014 10:12 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

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