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Author Topic:   Random or just incomplete information?
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2687
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 31 of 44 (738824)
10-16-2014 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by ProtoTypical
10-16-2014 7:21 AM


Re: @$%8 happens
Hello Prototypical,
Prototypical writes:

I would say that things acting without cause would be a good example of supernatural behavior.

I believe that at some point in the hierarchy of existence there is a breakdown in physics as we know it. It is not only unknowable, but unbelievable too. It starts sounding ridiculous.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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 Message 30 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-16-2014 7:21 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1069
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


Message 32 of 44 (739017)
10-19-2014 3:29 PM


Quantum Randomness
To cut a very long story short, it has been proven that the randomness in quantum mechanics cannot be the result of a lack of information (the same way the randomness in a dice roll can) or missing information about a deeper theory, unless that deeper theory obeys all of the following:

(a) Is non-local, that is allows signals to be sent faster than light and back in time. So that the past, present and future of the universe communicate with each other. So every particle is in contact with its own past and future self in addition to the pasts and futures of every other particle.

(b) Every particle carries an infinite amount of information (essentially the data concerning the communications above)

(c) The world is contextual. That is there is no universal quantities like "Energy", only "Energy in my lab in Singapore given that I ate lunch at 14:05 yesterday", which is a different physical quantity from "Energy in my lab in Singapore given that I ate lunch at 14:06 yesterday".

So either the world is genuinely random (i.e. subatomic events have no cause, no physical mechanism which results in their occurrence, so that let us say there is no answer to the question "Why did that atom decay?") or (a),(b) and (c) above are true.

(a) comes from Bell's theorem.
(b) from Hardy's ontological excess baggage theorem.
(c) from the Kochen-Specker theorem.


Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
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Posts: 9651
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 33 of 44 (739055)
10-19-2014 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Dr Adequate
10-14-2014 4:04 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
Compared to the Copenhagen Interpretation, his take on things seems downright mundane.

The problem is that non-locality is not even remotely mundane. And on top of that, you still cannot use Bohm's interpretation to predict when a nucleus will decay.

I'll agree that we're just shifting around weirdness, but the resulting weirdness from Bohm's interpretation is still right in your face. I don't see any way to say that it is less weird than Copenhagen.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2014 4:04 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-19-2014 11:16 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15936
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 34 of 44 (739075)
10-19-2014 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
10-19-2014 6:37 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
And on top of that, you still cannot use Bohm's interpretation to predict when a nucleus will decay.

Something the Bohm Interpretation has in common with everything else.

The problem is that non-locality is not even remotely mundane.

I said compared to the Copenhagen Interpretation it's mundane. And it is. Compared to the Copenhagen Interpretation, everything's mundane.

Meh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 10-19-2014 6:37 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9651
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 35 of 44 (739078)
10-20-2014 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Dr Adequate
10-19-2014 11:16 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
I said compared to the Copenhagen Interpretation it's mundane

I understood your comparison and I responded to it as you stated it.

I suppose this is a matter of opinion. But given the comments about non-locality put forward by Son Goku, I simply cannot see any particular weird-avoidance advantage for the Bohm Interpretation.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-19-2014 11:16 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
ProtoTypical
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Posts: 1739
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 36 of 44 (739144)
10-20-2014 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Son Goku
10-19-2014 3:29 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness
To cut a very long story short, ...

What we need is an introduction to quantum pyhysics thread!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Son Goku, posted 10-19-2014 3:29 PM Son Goku has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2014 7:28 AM ProtoTypical has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18658
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 37 of 44 (739155)
10-21-2014 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by ProtoTypical
10-20-2014 6:21 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness
What we need is an introduction to quantum pyhysics thread!

Something like the Introduction to Quantum Mechanics. thread perhaps ...

Edited by RAZD, : ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-20-2014 6:21 PM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-21-2014 8:26 AM RAZD has responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1739
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 38 of 44 (739156)
10-21-2014 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by RAZD
10-21-2014 7:28 AM


Re: Quantum Randomness
Yeah kinda like that but with more chapters.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2014 7:28 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2014 10:58 AM ProtoTypical has responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 18658
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 39 of 44 (739173)
10-21-2014 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by ProtoTypical
10-21-2014 8:26 AM


Re: Quantum Randomness
yeah, we need a chap ter fill it out a bit


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-21-2014 8:26 AM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-21-2014 11:40 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 41 by Son Goku, posted 10-21-2014 12:59 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 42 by 1.61803, posted 10-21-2014 2:42 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 43 by AZPaul3, posted 10-21-2014 7:06 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 44 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-21-2014 7:46 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15936
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 40 of 44 (739174)
10-21-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by RAZD
10-21-2014 10:58 AM


Re: Quantum Randomness
What happened to the unlike button? Now, when I really need it?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2014 10:58 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1069
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


Message 41 of 44 (739183)
10-21-2014 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by RAZD
10-21-2014 10:58 AM


Re: Quantum Randomness
Jaysus! We need this one put in deep quarantine!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2014 10:58 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2687
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 42 of 44 (739196)
10-21-2014 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by RAZD
10-21-2014 10:58 AM


Re: Quantum Randomness

Ugh.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2014 10:58 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


(2)
Message 43 of 44 (739220)
10-21-2014 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by RAZD
10-21-2014 10:58 AM


Re: Quantum Randomness
Excellent, RAZD!

Hip Hip Hooray!

No "unlike", no quarantine, no face-palm! Ignore them.

You da man!

HOOT HOOT HOOT HOOT!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2014 10:58 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1739
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 44 of 44 (739222)
10-21-2014 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by RAZD
10-21-2014 10:58 AM


Re: Quantum Randomness
If only we could calculate the probability that someone would spontaneously arrive, without motive, and produce such a thing then we could know for certain that we can't be sure.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2014 10:58 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
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